Jeter and defense

by Cbeck3 on Mar 30, 2009 3:22 PM EDT Comment 29 comments

My relationship with Pinstripe Alley is an excursion into the blogging world by a senior citizen with little understanding of the culture. Let me say that I don't know if it makes sense to pick up a discussion from months ago. It now seems to me the managers of the site, as well as the readership is in constant flux.

The blog has long railed against Jeter's defense. I got really sick of the 'Jeter sucks' discussion. I am an old baseball fan and I think I know good defense when I see it. What I have always thought was that Jeter's defense was not top flight. Any fool can see he's not Ozzie Smith (of course there's only one Ozzie, ever). For that matter he's not a up with some of the light hitting defensive specialists I've seen. I have claimed he's a good, big-league shortstop. He's a worthy all-star.

What I see him as good at is:

Sure handed, smart in terms of positioning and playing the situation. He's quick and accurate with the ball. He's outstanding on pop ups over his head. He's excellent on relays.

Well there is a nice article over on River Ave Blues. It is the first thing in a long time that I've seen to support my position.

Have a look. Let me know what you think.

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good stuff

defensive metrics still have a ways to go to equal offensive metrics in terms of ‘telling the whole story.’

re: Jeter -
did anyone see the incredible play Ramiro Pena made saturday afternoon against Atalnta? it looked like Ozzie Smith out there. he dove and snared a sharp grounder, got up and threw to first to get the runner. no way in hell does DJ make that play. i’m not sure if its a critique of DJ’s D or praise for Pena’s (or something in between), but it was great to see the consistently great defense Pena brings (though he is prone to mucking up an easy play now and then).

by Travis G on Mar 30, 2009 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

An out is an out

A low error rate and steady execution of plays that “should be made” produces extra outs because of the “easy” ones that aren’t mucked up.

Measurement is hard because there are so many variables in how hard a ball is to play. This is complicated by the fact that players, recognizing differences in their speed, quickness, arm etc. position themselves differently.

I will confess to disregarding many of the new defensive metrics because they produce resultd not supported by my opinion. My only defense for this self-centered approach is that many baseball pros seem to agree with me more than the metrics.

It does seem to me that I can remember being wrong at some point in the past.

If I's known I was going to live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself. Casey

by Cbeck3 on Mar 30, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

CBeck

Appreciate the input. I am not an old-timer, though at almost 50 I sometimes feel like it. I’m not a big Sabermetrics guy. Like you, I think that sometimes you just need to use your eyes and go by what they tell you. Obviously, there are flaws in Jeter’s game. There are things he does as well or better than anyone. There is one bad flaw in his defense, which is that he doesn’t get to much of anything hit to his left. I don’t need anything more than my eyes to tell me that, or that his arm isn’t as true as it was 5-6 years ago.
As for the leadership here, hopefully Travis and I will be here for a loooooong time. Which, in the world of the Internet might be, what, a week or two.

by Ed Valentine on Mar 30, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wishing you luck in that

If I's known I was going to live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself. Casey

by Cbeck3 on Mar 30, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes to a point

steadiness is obviously a plus factor. but the problem is , if say Jeter makes 3 less errors a year than other SS in the same range, but the other SS makes 20 other plays that Jeter would have just let pass for a hit, then obviously. the other SS is doing a better job, dispite the fact that he might also have made 5-6 (or more) errors while making plays out of Jeter’s range.

Defensive metrics is definately a work in process, in sabremetrics terms if we can probably quantify offense at 90%, then pitching is probably at around 70% while defense is only around 40-50% or less. but from what we are getting, the # don’t seem to add up for Derek.

We could use a different example. Bobby Abreu has a plus arm and rarely overplays a ball. but he is in fact a horrible outfielder. why? because he simply doesn’t do the most important aspect of a OF well enough, cover ground. almost anything hit behind him is a automatic double. he’ll NEVER catch anything going towards the wall. so we must ask ourself. what’s more likely to happen, throwing out a runner trying to stretch? or seeing well hit deep flys that might be catchable?

The difference between a good arm like Bobby and a horrible one like say… Carl Crawford, isn’t nearly enough to close the epic difference in the ground they cover and the balls the later gets to.

by RollingWave on Apr 4, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I always figured that was the case. People told me that he was bad defensively, but to me he always looked good. It makes sense that his range would be bad, we can’t really see that.

http://www.bronxbaseballdaily.com

by Rob Abruzzese on Mar 30, 2009 9:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Derek at short

I can’t separate offense from defense, so even if his glove skills are slipping, I like his overall contribution…taking pitches, using his patented jeterian swing (hate myself for quoting Sterling). If anyone saw “Sports Reporters” Sunday this was a topic and Bob Ryan – best ever observer of people in sports – said the problem isn’t now…its two years from now. Can’t bench a guy like Jeter, or trade him, or play him in the OF and won’t be strong enough for a DH. Then what?

We did better 'cause we got better...Yogi

by mickey07 on Mar 30, 2009 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Derek

If Cano is still around slide him to SS and put Jeter on 2nd so his failings going to the left diminishes.

by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Mar 31, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cano is only decent at 2B

I doubt he could play a better SS. Jeter still needs to go to his left if he’s playing 2B. The only real option a year or two from now is testing Jeter out in LF assuming Gardner performs well.

by BigSlim on Mar 31, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cano

can’t play short. Geesh, he’s not even a good second baseman. Besides, he can’t go to his left, either.

by Ed Valentine on Mar 31, 2009 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

UZR on Cano

very inconsistent. he has the capacity to be brilliant, but also can suck a ton.

06: -4
07: +10
08: -6

either way though , he’s not a short stop and is irrelevent to this, the Yankees should just hope that Cano can finally find focus and consistently put up seasons like 07 (on both side of the ball)

by RollingWave on Apr 4, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter in OF

and the answer at SS will hopefully be Pena … if his bat keeps coming along that is.

by potroast on Mar 31, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

SS

Pot, I think Pena as heir apparent is premature. He has a lot to prove yet with the bat. Plus, I think replacing Jeter w/an unproven player is difficult. There will be scrutiny and questions any time something goes wrong, and an established veteran might be better able to deal with it.

by Ed Valentine on Mar 31, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jete's future

is in the OF. His biggest problem is actually his height. While I’m definitely not saying Jetes is not a good athlete, he just can’t bend down and reach those ground balls anymore cuz he’s tall.

He actually should fit right into CF. But for right now Jetes is seriously gonna have to prove that he sucks at short. People can bash the Yanks and Jetes’ defense all they want, he still makes the plays and is a better all around SS than many in the league.

by FreeBradshaw on Mar 31, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes,

it’s a big IF (Pena’s bat). I don’t want to label him as the heir apparent yet either, but I can still be hopeful because if not, then what other options are there?

by potroast on Mar 31, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Years

It is gonna be years before Jeter cannot play at SS. He has to prove he is costing the Yankees games at that position and I don’t think that will happen yet. Now you have a couple of those plays he tanked in WBC happen in game 6 or 7 of the Division Championship or WS and Jeter will have to pull himself out of short. You’re right Cano would be horrible at SS, I would say if Pena can put up decent numbers at the plate his defense more than compensates. The runs he helps shave off will hopefully be more than the runs he doesn’t knock in.

by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Mar 31, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

move Jeet?

you can’t move Jeter from SS without legitimate health concerns. It would be too much of a moral hit for the team and the franchise for that to happen. I wouldn’t even mention the outfield until there is overwhelming evidence he can’t play SS anymore.

by jmposs86 on Apr 6, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can Jeter play left field?

If he has poor range as a shortstop, why would you move him to another position (CF) that requires a fielder to cover a large portion of the field?

I think we need to look very closely at his offense this year to see what type of hitter he is at now age 35. Last year was sub-par by his standards, but he was battling injury and posted a BABIP nearly 30 points lower than his career average. The drop in BABIP could be a sign of decline, or it could be a fluke. But if Jeter can manage to post a .380-.390 OBB and a .440-.450 SLG, why can’t his bat play in LF?

by 3460kuri on Mar 31, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

it's a good point..

but i would think his lack of range as a SS has more to do with reaction time… he’s always been excellent at tracking and getting to fly balls.

anybody else have thoughts on this? i’m not sure if the metrics account for reaction time or what…

by NumberSeven on Mar 31, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

From reading all this, the obvious thing to do is

to just let him walk.

Everything looks nicer when you win. The girls are prettier. The cigars taste better. The trees are greener. --Billy Martin

by garp on Mar 31, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

Each position requires a different athletic mix. Jeter is fast enough, witness his baserunning. He seems to see the ball’s flight well enough. Hid weakness is in the first instant, that first step and acceleration. This is less critical in the OF. So, defensively he could play corner OF (IMO).

He is an outstanding offensive SS. He’s a pretty ordinary offensive corner outfielder. I think he’s our SS longer than you guys do. I doubt the Yanks will “let him walk”.

If I's known I was going to live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself. Casey

by Cbeck3 on Apr 1, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LF would be fine I guess

But as a CF you aren’t reacting to the ball, plus he really doesn’t have to reach down for those ball that are in the hole. There is a reason why most of the greatest fielding SS are short, cuz they can get low to the ground and field them.

Of course if A-Rod wasn’t there Jete’s logical move would be to third just like Cal Ripken.

But Jete’s issue is not his speed, he still gets a few steal so its not like it’d be Giambi out there in CF.

by FreeBradshaw on Apr 1, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ha

“giambi out there in CF” — the image of that in my mind made me chuckle.

by NumberSeven on Apr 1, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter and defense

Derek Jeter is solid, and he is a clutch performer. Everybody has weaknesses, and perhaps Jeter’s weakness is his age. He is past his prime and will probably make more errors than before, but he will still win many more games than lose by his defense. His presence on the field is one that stats can not measure. His fierce determination to win does not show up either. But his overall stats are Hall of Fame material. Can the Yankees find a better shortstop , of course. Can they find a better hitter, of course. But can they find a better winner for a team, I do not think so!

by MantleManiac on Apr 1, 2009 5:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Fielder, ok, but hitter?

There still aren’t many better hitting SS in the league. Jete’s last season was playing hurt and like he always does never complains. Its not an excuse, but you try hitting normally after you took a 95 MPH fastball on the hand.

Jete’s did that and was never the same the whole season.

Like I said, Jete’s future is in the OF. It may even be next season with a whole bunch of guys on the way out like Damon, Matsui and maybe even Nady. Its probably CF cuz while it may not make sense at first, Jete has always shown the ability to track flies at SS and if you played SS before you know that you can play CF too. Its his quickness that’s the problem and also that he gets a littly lazy on the throws too. He wouldn’t have to worry about either in CF.

by FreeBradshaw on Apr 1, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

All I Know For Sure

Is there are about 29 teams who would trade their shortstop for ours. NUFF SAID!!!!!

I see things you don't see.

by LouieTheLip on Apr 5, 2009 2:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I can name 3

in the NL East alone who wouldn’t.

I’m a Mets fan, but I found this post to be interesting – I actually like Derek Jeter. I read a Phillies fan’s take on Ryan Howard – that b/c he’s so overrated by the national media who only love RBI, the stat crowd has pushed back to the point that they act like he completely sucks. The truth lies somewhere in between, that he’s a very good hitter who shouldn’t be in the top 3 in MVP discussions, but the Phillies shouldn’t be looking for his replacement either. I think the same can be said about Jeter, who’s the prototypical “so overrated he’s underrated” player (or, the complete opposite of Bobby Abreu).

Jeter does a LOT of things very, very well, but he is absolutely awful at one thing (fielding balls to his left), to the point that it actually makes his overall defensive game a negative, even though he’s above average to great at everything else. What’s funny is that it seems like many of you have come to that conclusion, which I believe is pretty much the same conclusion as the advanced fielding metrics.

I’m really curious to see what the Yankees are gonna do with Jeter over the next few years. I wonder if this was what it was like when Berra could no longer catch and Mantle could no longer play Centerfield. Anyway, just my 2 cents, I’m not trying to start anything, I’m just legitimately interested in this discussion.

by cjmulrain on Apr 6, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've come around on Reyes

While Id never say Id trade Jetes for Reyes, its just impossible. But Reyes along with Rollins and Hanley are better “all around”. Last year Jetes would have been a distant fourth behind those guys at least defensively. Ramirez and Rollins are probably better power wise and Reyes has a ton of speed although I don’t see him as a good a hitter as Jeter (not really close either).

But yea, people are out of control with the idea that Jeter is a horrible SS. I just saw him make a play today on a short hop that while its not a play that only he could make, its also a tough play. And also Jetes is starting the season off on fire. I still can’t trade him for anyone tho. Rollins and Hanley are indeed better right now, and I guess Reyes is better overall (great fielder and speed, but the Bat is no where near Jetes)

by FreeBradshaw on Apr 6, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

the Phillies, Yankees, Mets, and Marlins all would refuse to trade their SS for any of the others straight up. Each one has strengths the others don’t and each has at least one weakness the others don’t, and the fact that 3 of them are homegrown and the one who isn’t is probably the best of them makes it unlikely that any of them would make a trade. But, I’d bet the other 26 teams would trade for any of them straight up. I agree about Jeter, like I said, I actually like him probably a lot more than most Mets fans.

by cjmulrain on Apr 8, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs