New York Yankee notes: No love for Thurman?
by Ed Valentine on Dec 29, 2009 7:02 AM EST
in New York Yankees News
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PrintLet's look around the Inter-Google this morning and see what is being said about our New York Yankees. Oh, and I promise to make this about something other than who will play left field.
Bugs & Cranks ranks the four best catchers in Yankee history, and leaves Thurman Munson off the list. My guess is that upsets you, just like it upset me at first glance. B&C's Landon Evanson makes a solid argument for why Elston Howard gets the fourth spot instead of Munson, even though I am still not sure I agree with him.
How could we leave such a respected, accomplished and crucial Yankee off of this list? Let us explain. Even though Thurman Munson had a higher batting average, scored more runs, collected more hits, posted a higher on-base percentage and drove in just 32 fewer runs despite hitting 48 fewer homers than the man who burst his bubble for the fourth and final spot on our countdown, those weren’t the critical determining factors.
Historical significance and winning outweighed everything else.
Granted, Munson won the MVP as he led the Yankees to the pennant in 1976, which ended a streak of 12 years without a World Series appearance for the pinstripers. And though Munson was named the first Yankees captain since Lou Gehrig, the stocky catcher qualified for just three post-seasons over 11 years, and made fewer All-Star appearances (7) than Elston Howard’s nine.
Your thoughts on that?
Talking Chop thinks the Atlanta Braves should hurry up and trade newly-acquired Melky Cabrera. Hey, maybe .... oh, sorry, almost broke my own rule. No left field talk.
David Pinto of Baseball Musings is doing a 'Players A to Z' series this off-season. Since he just got to A.J. Burnett, no way he makes it all the way through the alphabet before Spring Training. Oh, yeah, Pinto does think A.J. will better last season's 13 victories in 2010.
The New York Daily News is out with lists of the 10 best and worst New York athletes of the decade. There are, of course, several Yankees on both lists.
We know the Yankees had a better 2009 than the Boston Red Sox. The top moment of the Yankee season, of course, being the 27th World Series title. The Red Sox top moment? Over The Monster has chosen Jacoby Ellsbury's steal of home off Andy Pettitte. Yep, that's really the best they could come up with.
Mark Feinsand breaks down Yankee player salaries in an effort to figure out how much they might still be willing to spend.
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It’s hard to argue Yogi-Dickey for 1 and 2.
To me, Posada clearly beats Munson despite defense because Posada’s offensive peak lasted so much longer, and Posada’s late start and peeing on his hands has helped him defy the normal catcher’s decline.
The case for Howard is even easier.
The Yanks were late to integrate, and Howard was 26 when he finally broke the line. Compare the few season they overlap, and Howard was an equal hitter to Munson. While Howard declined sharply at 36, it’s hard to argue that Munson would have been any different.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Uhhh...Munson's career was also shorter than it should have been
1. Yogi
2. Dickey 54.3 WAR. 7 rings.
3. Munson…even if he only played 5 more years and put up 1.5/year, he has a 51 WAR..
4. Posada. He has at least two more years left, which will put him at around 48-49. 5 rIngs (and counting).
5. Howard. Let’s say hie missed 4 good seasons averaging 5 WAR. Still only puts him at 48. So I give this one to Jorge.
Interesting that Munson has such an advantage in WAR over Jorge. OPS+ seems to favor Posada.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I was being unclear
Jorge has played 11 “full” seasons worth of games, Munson 9.5. Jorge is at 44 WAR, Munson died with 43. You figure Jorge has 2 more years in him, but Munson probably had 3-5 (putting him at 37).
So you figure that Munson’s career was probably going to be a little better than Posada. But if you want to count rings, then Jorge might move ahead. But then you count MVPs and leadership, then maybe it’s Munson.
Now the thing about Howard is he really only missed 4-5 seasons, AND he was playing behind Berra (he didn’t even start catching full time until 1961), so even if baseball HAD integrated earlier, there’s no way Howard would be behind the plate when Berra was in the middle of his MVP years. If we’re being generous and giving him 5 WAR for those 4 seasons, that’s only 48. But likely it’s even less than that.
by PortlandYankee on Dec 29, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
The play when Jacoby stole home plate...
Didn’t we win that game?
-Announcemen Forwarded To The Following: Boston Blowsox, New York Pets, Philadelphia Phonies, And Any Other Team Who Ain't The With The Empire.................
Getcha' Fuccin Rings Up........
by NYYWinsRings27 on Dec 29, 2009 9:26 AM EST via mobile reply actions
no
Yankees started 0-8 against the Sox remember? It’s all Sox fans could talk about until the Yankees embarrassed them in the Bronx in August.
Yeah you have to be sitting pretty high while off to such a start against your main division rival. Then it all collapsed and you want to forget about it.
by Scooby Snacks on Dec 29, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Nope, lost 4-1
For OTM, I’d probably slot winning the eighth consecutive game against the Yankees early in the season as #1.
by Scooby Snacks on Dec 29, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Elston Howard
I don’t have a proble with the list. It’s hard to compare players from different eras. I long ago gave up defending players from my era. Younger guys didn’t get the chance to see them play so there is really no comparsion. Elston Howard was a great ballplayer, great catcher and a great Yankee.
No
I’m torn between this and AJ losing the six run lead as the worst moment of the season series. But it’s all good.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
Munson belongs in the HOF
he compared quite favorably to Bench and Fisk, two of the best of all time.
he was the most intense ballplayer of his era.
thurmon’s problem was that he didn’t give a shit about cultivating the media, which we all know is how you make it to Cooperstown.
by NYer in a strange land on Dec 29, 2009 12:05 PM EST reply actions
Ellsbury's steal is the best they could come up with?
really? A play that got them one run in April is the best play they could come up with? I would think that being 8-0 against the Yankees would be their best moment.
MY best Red Sox moment this year was either Tazawa giving up the game winning HR to A-Rod, or Paplebon blowing the ALDS after he had 2 outs and 2 strikes with nobody out. Which one was better (or worse for Sox fans)?
Berra, Dickey, Posada, Howard, Munson
In that order. There’s no shame in being #5 in that company.
Why stop at 4 anyway? Strikes me as sort of arbitrary.
Elston Howard was a great catcher
and a great person, from all accounts. I tip my cap to him. That said, I would rank Munson ahead of Howard in the list of all-time best Yankee catchers.
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