Saturday News: The Tools of Ignorance
by jscape2000 on Dec 26, 2009 10:14 AM EST
in New York Yankees News
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PrintThe Daily News runs down the worst Big Apple baseball moves. A lot of what they picked were moves that seemed good at the time, like Rocket's return to the Bronx or trading for Kevin Brown, but failed to deliver a championship ring, which must be all that has ever mattered to their readers and obviously the only way to judge the quality of a player. Mattingly must have sucked.
Color me unimpressed, but of their 42 "bad moves" I support most of the Yanks'. 25 of the 42 are Yankee moves, and the News basically skips the reign of Omar for the Mets. (Maybe I'll put together my own list for the coming week).
Plus they got the facts wrong on Jared Wright: he was never great, but when Cashman traded him for Chris Britton the Orioles picked up his option, not the Yanks.
Typical Daily News (more on that later).
Over at LoHud, Sam Borden is asking the same question I am: who exactly is going to pay $12M for Ben Sheets. Add him to Holiday, Bay, Damon and all the other players who have overplayed their hands.
I smell collusion, but I also think prices could drop enough to justify a $2Mish bench player. Jim Thome to pinch hit? Chad Tracy to back up the infield corners? A Jerry Hairston Jr. reunion?
WasWatching marks the anniversary of Billy Martin's death. It seems like more than 20 years because of how different the Yankee machine is today than it was when the Boss was calling the shots.
Fangraphs briefly looks at the change in the AL East from 2008 to 2009. By 2008 WAR, the AL East boasted 4 of the top 5 teams. In 2009, the AL East had the top 3 teams in baseball- the Yankees, the Rays, and the Red Sox, respectively.
JoePoz is depressed, and rightly so, by Yankee fans' reactions to the Vazquez trade, which brings us back full circle to the Daily News. More accurately, he's depressed by the reaction of the kind of Yankee fans who read the Daily News and vote in polls there.
Javy Vazquez is more than just "the perfect No. 4," he's better (and cheaper) than Ben Sheets, and he's better than Melky.
Don't worry Joe, real Yankee fans know that Vazquez is a borderline ace. And when he performs for the Yanks the way he performed last time until his shoulder started to hurt, he will be hailed as such. Stop reading the Daily News.
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Daily News
The Daily News has always been a Long Island / Queens NY Mets kiss ass paper.
The Mets are so bad and have underpreformed for that huge NL payroll that it’s not even worth to list all the reasons.
Please – do not ever compare Reyes to Jeter ever again. First off, Reyes would have to take the field to start the comparisons. Since this has been such a challenge the argumnet is dead.
NY Post
is the same way. When the Yankees were playing the Angels in the ALCS last year, the post predicted the Angels in 7. How does a NY paper go against a NY team?? I feel confident in saying that the Los Angeles papers did not choose the Phillies to beat the Dodgers nor the Yankees to beat the Angels.
by PublicMenace on Dec 26, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
I should actually have said this past postseason not last year.
by PublicMenace on Dec 26, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
You support most of those Yankees moves?
Enough said, I guess.
As to Javy, a lifetime 4.19 ERA (with 2/3 coming in the weak NL);35 years old in July; one year before he’s a free agent; been traded 5 times in 6 years. Also, enough said.
vasquez better then melky?
that is still to be determined,lets see is he can kep up with his winning ways,as a yankee fan i hope so. vasquez pitches every 5 days melky was the starting center fielder,who crashes into the wall, laying it all out to get the ball, hitting game winner walk offs, and not to mention the chemistry with his team mates. lets see if vasquez can match a fraction of melkys heart. but until that happens,hes is not better.
I am the biggest nay-sayer of the Vazquez deal
but seriously? He will be better than Melky. I never liked what I call Melky’s antics, but what you say is his heart and chemistry. Melky doesn’t bring too many great memories for me and I was at two of his walk off games.
A league average pitcher that gives you 200+ innings is far more valuable than a 1 WAR center fielder. Vazquez for his career has been consistently above average.
?
To be determined?
THis Melky overrating lately is extremely laughable.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 26, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
laughable
melky has proved that he is solid,what has vasquez done,sure he is a great pitcher when he is not wearing the ny,oh yeah he did for a half of season for the yanks. lol come on man
he only spent a year with the Yankees
half of it was great, and half of it was bad when he was playing through an injury. Now he’s healthy, more mature as a pitcher, pitching in a contract year, right off of the best season in his career. I think he has a pretty good chance of doing what he has done in the past next season.
You can’t judge Vasquez based on what he did in half a year for the Yankees while playing through an injury. Thats not a big enough sample size. You’re saying that this is a bad deal because he had a bad half season while partly hurt 6 years ago? Thats laughable. Vasquez is a borderline ace who will be the #4 pitcher for the Yankees. He pitches 200 innings every season. Melky is an average outfielder. Nothing more. I think it was a great deal.
Wow there sure is a lot of re-writing of Javy's sorry history
In only two months – April and June – was his ERA lower than 5 when he was with the Yanks.
April and June
two months in the first half right? His ERA in the first half was 3.56, he had won 10 games, and was Joe Torre’s selection to the All-Star team. Thats bad? I said that he was bad in the second half due to injury. Not re-writing anything.
2....
2 walkoffs.
Good memories they were…..2 games they also were.
Melky was a 4th OF masquerading as a starting CF (who platooned with Brett Gardner….)
Vazquez will be an innings eater….the caliber of a #2 starter..masquerading as a 4th starter.
Remember that whole 3 man rotation?
Don’t need it anymore…4>3.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 26, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
who was
the third out fielder,since melky was the 4th? melky played in 154 games last year.gardner played in 108 most of which he came off the bench to pinch run.,not to much platooning there. i totally agree with you that vasquez is a really good pitcher and throws a lot of innings. maybe im just still sour about his past performance in the bronx. but yes if he can produce like he has done the last 5 years it it a very good trade.
Melky was the 3rd OF.
Which is exactuly why I said he’s a 4th OF masquerading as a starter.
He’s not starting caliber.
You can get away with him…but you’d be better off getting an upgrade.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 27, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
All of these comments
are purely based on speculation. No one knows how it’s going to turn out. I just don’t think Vazquez was worth trading a starting OF for. My opinion. Yes, I like having him in the rotation, just not at the expense of an OF and that as it stands Gardner may be the starter. You keep putting the Melky supporters down and seem to like Gardner. I don’t get it. There is a whole lot more to put your support for Gardner down than to say all this Melky “love” is crazy. You always post “WAR” and crap like that. I see production. Period. And Gardner is not worth a roster spot.
You see production but don't seem to recall Melky
swinging at pitches over his head or in the dirt on first pitches.
Simply put, “production” is how many runs you create and prevent. Runs lead to wins. Melky as an average bat and average defender didn’t add a whole lot of runs to the last few Yankee teams when compared to a hypothetical replacement level player. You may not like acronyms but WAR = production.
Even if you’re bearish on Gardner and view him as an inferior player to Melky, the difference between the two is made up for and then some by having Javy Vazquez make 30+ starts in the 4th rotation spot. For those who are bullish on Gardner and see that his defense likely makes up for his deficiencies with the lumber, we have improved the rotation be adding a solid pitcher and by improving the defense for our entire pitching staff.
by tombradylikesdudes on Dec 26, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
So I guess CMW was never good because he got injured and had a bad year?
Face it, Javy is better than Melky. I loved Melky, but I love winning more, and you’ve gotta do what it takes to win. Yeah he had some walkoffs, and yeah he won a WS with us, so remember him for that.
You want more Melky? Go out, get the Yankees 2009 season DVD, and watch him forever. Now its time for Javy to help us get 28.
by Gelatin on Dec 26, 2009 1:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The "bad" moves
I guess it really depends on how much hindsight you want to award yourself. I try to look at each move in the context of what was happening at the time.
1. Rocket’s Return- I wanted it. Players had gone down with injuries, and we were desperate for starting pitching.
2. Igawa- no.
3. Randy Johnson- Didn’t want it. Beltran+ Vazquez > Bernie +RJ
4. Jaret Wright- Didn’t want it, but trading him rather than declining his option and letting him walk was a good move.
5. Pavano- I’d have signed him. He was the best available pitcher when we needed starters.
6. Javy Vazquez- I liked him the first time around. He pitched hurt, which is more than you can say for Pavano. He got blamed for 2004 when the blame should have fallen on Torre’s bullpen management.
7. Kevin Brown was a good pitcher when healthy, and with Rocket “retiring” he was a good trade.
8. Contreras- the Yankees have the most money, but they’ll never draft high. So they pay for international free agents. Contreras brought an ace’s rep, so the Yanks’ paid an ace’s price.
9. Jeff Weaver. Show me a 25 year old pitcher who has averaged 198IP in his first 4 seasons with a 1.3 WHIP, then tell me I can have him for a 25 year old reliever with a 1.5 WHIP. I will make that trade every time. I think he was mis-handled by Torre and then made the scapegoat for the 2003 WS.
10. Giambi- I had mixed feelings about bringing him on, and he played the field too much. But he was among the best hitters in the league when he signed.
11. Of course you trade Mike Lowell for some of the best pitching prospects in the game when you already have Scott Brosius at third.
12. Drew Hensen- meh. Prospects get overhyped and then they bust.
13. Hideki Irabu- hard to believe that the guy averaged 6 innings per start with a 1.36 WHIP and wanted to be a Yankee so much that he basically forced a trade from the Padres, huh? Oh, and he has two rings.
14. Kenny Rogers- playoff choker! They should have dragged him out back and shot him instead of trading him for Brosius.
15. Brien Taylor- meh. See Hensen, Drew.
The rest of the moves are before I became a fanatic, so it’d be silly for me to pretend to care too much about them. Free agents get hurt, most prospects bust, but you’ll get roasted if you ever trade a future Hall of Famer (even if you had Mattingly on your team playing that HoFer’s position.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Most of these moves
Seemed to make sense at the time. Clemens part II was just desperation, Pavano, Rogers and Vazquez all seemed good when we got them, “Oh my hand!” Brown was a way of getting rid of Weaver. Randy Johnson – well it was Randy Johnson. We really dodged a bullet with that one because Arizona was offered Wang and Cano and chose Navarro and Halsey instead.
The worst moves of the last decade mo…
Lilly for Weaver – Lilly was already showing he could pitch in NY while Weaver was known to be a headcase. The Yankees were, understandably, blinded by his talent, but bringing him to NY was a terrible idea.
Kei Igawa – If you watched 5 minutes of YouTube video on this guy you had to know he’d be a disaster. He got Japanese hitters out on junk that major leaguers won’t swing at. The Yankees signed him over Lilly as a way of skirting the luxury tax and they paid for it.
Jason Giambi – Some people liked him but signing an obvious steroid user who couldn’t play defense through age 38 was silly.
Gary Sheffield – He had 2 big years as a Yankee but the Yankees chose him over Vladimir Guerrero, seemingly for no other reason than that he was Doc Gooden’s nephew.
Jaret Wright, Chris Hammond, Steve Karsay – and any other Braves pitcher we signed after a Leo Mazzone-induced career year.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Dec 26, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I forgot about Sheffield. If I recall, that was a Boss move and Cash preferred Vlad.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Vazquez
I don’t see why it has to be one extreme or the other. He’s not a “borderline” ace except in 2003 and 2009, both in the NL East. He’s had 4 years in the AL with ERA’s of 4.91, 4.84, 3.74 and 4.67. But he’s also not a scrub. In his 4 AL years he pitched 198 or more innings in all of them, and had K rates of 8.2 or better in 3 of them. Vazquez is an ideal #4 on a playoff team. I think we can expect 200+ innings with an ERA of around 4.5. That will keep us in enough games to get him 15 wins or so. If he does better than that, then great.
On the Melky thing, the Yankees didn’t trade Melky or Vazquez, they traded Arodys Vizcaino with Melky and Dunn as throw-ins. We won’t know if this was a good trade or not or 3 or 4 years as we see how Arodys develops. As much as I like Melky the Yankees shouldn’t have a problem finding a left fielder who can produce similarly or better.
While Phil Hughes being in the pen hurts his development and imo isn’t good for the team in the long-run it does improve the Yankees pen for 2010. As a fan the Vazquez trade didn’t excite me, but looking at it from Cashman’s perspective, I can definitely understand why he made it.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Dec 26, 2009 1:27 PM EST reply actions
This is laughable
Where did these guys come from?Anyone in there right mind takes Vazquez for Melky.I do not trust Gardner alone out there either but we are clearly better with Javy.Seriously where did they come from?France
Anyone who mentions salary caps as an answer is unemployed. Say Hello to my little friend,Al Pacino-Scarface
by cashman bashman on Dec 26, 2009 2:40 PM EST reply actions
We'll see.
Won’t we? Laughable is not the proper term. By my judgment, more of us are pro Melky than not. Vazquez is probably going to be here for one year. I would have preferred to save the cash for next year’s free agent pool, i.e. C Lee… I also feel this way because our OF is terribly weakened by this move. Just one injury and we’re in a heap o’ ship!
Yeah and were did you come from France?
Or maybe the Yahoo thread with the rest of the cobbs?
Anyone who mentions salary caps as an answer is unemployed. Say Hello to my little friend,Al Pacino-Scarface
by cashman bashman on Dec 28, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
And save what cash?
You said it yourself he can be gone next yr,hence freeing up the same cash your talking about.Keep waiting for next yr to ,there is always going to be one and you will wait forever.Terribly weakened outfield?He thinks Melky was Griffey Jr. in his prime,he was a 4th outfielder thrust into a platoon with another 4th outfielder.
Anyone who mentions salary caps as an answer is unemployed. Say Hello to my little friend,Al Pacino-Scarface
by cashman bashman on Dec 28, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
4th OF? I'm from France?
The average SB for CF=12, Melky 10
RBI- 34, Melky 68
HR- 8, Melky 13
AVG- .266, Melky .274.
Go back to China, or make a legitimate case to try to put others down. Classless.
Get well JoPoz!
Jscape, why do you suspect collusion?
Chone Figgins signed a 4-yr below-market value contract right out of the gate and the Astros foolishly granted Brandon Lyons a 3-yr/$15M deal. Then there are over-the-hill catchers getting two-year over-paid deals. With the exception of Matt Holliday (who I still think will crack $100M+), there isn’t a single free agent hitter that’s going to be a difference-maker for any team.
It seems like there are so many players unsigned with no bidders.
It could be a glut of similar players at the same position. It could be that none of the teams have any money to spend despite several years of record breaking attendance, tv deals, and merchandizing.
I understand that the Jays and Rays aren’t spending, but so many divisions could be swung by a few smart signings out of this group (for instance, the Mariners went from looking up at the Angels for the decade to the team to beat in the West).
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
It’s quite possible yet unprovable. I think it’s more of result of the economic downturn. Owners losing money in their other business ventures (i.e. Tom Hicks).
by Scooby Snacks on Dec 27, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Lets be real also....
These owners are pocketing this cash…..
That’s why I love my yanks…..
-Announcemen Forwarded To The Following: Boston Blowsox, New York Pets, Philadelphia Phonies, And Any Other Team Who Ain't The With The Empire.................
Getcha' Fuccin Rings Up........
by NYYWinsRings27 on Dec 27, 2009 4:11 AM EST via mobile reply actions
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