New York Yankees notes: Who's No. 5?
by Ed Valentine on Dec 23, 2009 7:52 AM EST
in New York Yankees News
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PrintThe biggest ripple effect of the New York Yankees trade for Javier Vazquez is, of course, that if everyone is healthy there is only room for one more starting pitcher in the team's rotation.
So, who do you want it to be -- Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes? Seems like whether Joba, and now Hughes, should start or relieve is the Yankee topic that will never go away. Vote in the poll below to give us your opinion. And go to the jump to see how I try to frame arguments for each.
Joba Chamberlain should ...
BE A STARTER: He was inconsistent as a starter in 2009, but he showed flashes he could be the top-flight starter the Yankees envisioned. He has all the pitches to do it. Plus, no more Joba Rules. He is at the point in his career where he is ready to be a full-fledged starter, no being pulled after three innings so he doesn't pitch too much. Not having to deal with would make manager Joe Girardi's life easier. And it would be nice to find out what kind of starter Joba could be without the restrictions.
BE A RELIEVER: I have been loathe to admit it, but it was pretty obvious in post-season that Chamberlain's personality fits the bullpen. He feeds on emotion and adrenaline, and coming out of the bullpen for an inning or so he doesn't have to reign in his feelings. He doesn't have to pace himself, and he not only throws harder he seems to be more aggressive.
Phil Hughes should ...
BE A STARTER: Hughes has always been looked at as a guy who would someday be at the top of their rotation. How will the Yankees ever know if they don't give him the chance? He certainly has all the pitches, and after 2009's success in the bullpen he would seem poised to carry that into the rotation.
BE A RELIEVER: It seems like we have waited forever for Hughes to be a top-flight starter, even though he is still just 23. He is just 8-9 with a 5.40 ERA as a starter, though, so he has never shown he can do it. Much like Chamberlain, though, Hughes has shown better stuff and a more aggressive attitude out of the bullpen. All of the numbers scream that he is more effective out of the bullpen. His emergence as the eighth-inning guy in 2009 was a key to the Yankees' regular-season success. Why mess with that? Plus, having only pitched 86 innings in 2009 he would be subjected to the innings limitations Chamberlain has outgrown -- the 'Hughes Rules,' if you will.
Other Notes
Mostly, more reaction and fallout from the Vasquez acquisition.
- Vasquez's first tour with the Yankees in 2004 did not end the way he wanted it to. He is thrilled to be back.
"Everybody that knows me knows I didn’t want to leave the first time," Vazquez said, adding later, "I’ve got to say, it’s a great opportunity to be back, and hopefully I can erase those memories."
Since leaving the Yankees, Vazquez is one of only two pitchers with at least 1,000 innings and 1,000 strikeouts; Santana is the other. The Yankees’ scouts consider him one of the 15 best starters in the majors, and when the Yankees analyzed their options for improving the rotation, Vazquez’s name was one of three that stood out.
The others were Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee.
- Joel Sherman offers 10 thoughts on the deal.
- Thinking about Johnny Damon with Melky Cabrera gone? Brian Cashman is saying that is not going to happen. With the Yankees, though, you know they never completely close the door on anything.
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Hughes in the pen
Joba has earned it and hopefully this year he’ll be out to prove he’s got what it takes.
Or just have two devastating relievers. I’d be ok with Gaudin or whoever and an unhittable bullpen.
That's what we have spring training for
I think Joba has the edge initially because all the innings limits are off, but he still projects as a reliever in my opinion.
by upstateNYYFan1984 on Dec 23, 2009 9:34 AM EST reply actions
+1 to spring training
Though I actually think Hughes has the edge because it’s easier to control innings in the pen at the end of the season. Look for Joba to repeat the bullpen to starter switch in July or if someone goes down.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
It's actually great
To have these problems. I mean worst case scenario for both is we know that they will be GREAT relievers for the next 10-15 years. It’s nice to have great talent fighting for the team, to show what they can do.
Joba
Well, I believe Hughes will be a better starter but Joba hasn’t been given a real chance either. I’d like to see Joba go one season as a full starter with no restrictions. If he can’t do it, then I’ll change my mind. Of course, I feel that Hughes should be starting too. There’s a good chance someone will go down and neither will have to be in the bullpen for too long. Not that I’m rooting for that.
agreed
since Joba has no limits, let’s see what he can do with a full season.
the downside with Hughes is that we and all the media will constantly be referring to his ip limits (like the last 2 years). Joba can just go out there and do his best w/o worrying about the pitch count. he deserves a full season of that before his long term role is decided.
but in general, these problems about ‘too much pitching’ tend to not be problems for long. what are the odds AJ and AP have another fully healthy season again? under 50% i’d say.
Let 'em compete
for it. I don’t think either is ready to be annointed without a fair fight.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Dec 23, 2009 9:58 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Regardless of what we think
and I actually think Joba could have a great career setting up, then closing, and that Phil could have a long fireballer-turned-finesse-pitcher career, like Moose.
But they spent the past couple years on rules and innings limits so Joba could be unleashed this year as a starter. Cashman won’t turn his back on all that prep as quickly as fans like us tend to flip flop. That is the plan, that has been the plan and there is no reason forcing them to abandon it and I think if you asked Joe or Cash right now, that’s exactly what they would say.
Phil is not ready to start as far as length goes. He would be starting the year going 60-80 pitches for at least a month because he’s not stretched out.
The 5th spot in the rotation is not just the 5th spot. It’s also the first guy ready to take the 4th or 3rd spot in case of injury. Joba is ready right out of spring to go 100 pitches. Phil is not.
by Jaybat on Dec 23, 2009 9:58 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
November, December, January, February...
4 months off.
Phil Hughes has plenty of time to get ready to be a starter.
Every starting pitcher in baseball starts off on a pitch limit, 50-70 or so, to start off. That’s Joba, CC, everyone.
Phil will be just as ready as Joba…
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
pitching
joba is not cosistant and many batters connect home runs off him——vasquez is no holiday—sad yanks could not get holiday—-real sad!
It will be interesting.
I think both are gonna end up in the rotation at some point this yea.
Not sure who wins out in ST..but one will, my money’s on Joba. I really hope he just goes out there and does what he’s really capable of.
This is the last year for him..should he not get any better, as a starter. Hopefully he does and allows the Yanks to NOT have to go out and get another starter next season, and focus on other areas of the team if needed/available.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
Here's one thing about Joba as reliver
We might have FIVE more years of Mo. Joba is 24 next season which means that (God willing) Mo will still be an effective reliever until Joba’s 29 yo season.
Is he going to be content as a setup man for 5 years? Probably not, when he has starter/closer stuff.
by PortlandYankee on Dec 23, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
That's why give him a chance to prove he's a starter.
Who’s to say some other young fire-baller can’t be a closer?
What if Andrew Brackman..or Dellin Betances..or someone else, just can’t seem to stay healthy and will never be a starter?
There’s a spot for Joba (and Hughes)..give them a chance/
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
And the more I hear
about where exactly Javy Vazquez stands in the ‘ratings’ of ML starters..the more this trade looks like a robbery.
The Yankees got a #2 starter. AJ Burnett can be a #2..but his inconsistencies scream #3-4. Pettite is a solid middle of the rotation guy.
Vazquez could be an ace. As a #2…he’s deadly.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
i agree
this was a great move….and i’d be happy even if we go with gardner in LF
save $$ for next year
Joba
the Yankees went through all that crap last year to give him an innings limit. That completely goes to waste if they turn him back into a reliever. Hughes, on the other hand, still will have an innings limit, and it makes more sense for him to pitch out of the pen.
I think
Joba is both a better starter and better reliever than Hughes. I agree, because of the way he was handled last year, that he has to be given the chance to start over Hughes. But damn, he’s such a great reliever. Need two Joba’s!
Hughes is a pretty good reliever too
I mean, 1.40 ERA out of the pen? Damn. He was near unhittable for a while out of the bullpen.
This is Joba's year to start. If he fails this year, then bullpen.
We have to give him this year first though.
I also feel really really good with Hughes as our 8th inning setup to Mo this year.
that wouldn't make sense
it gives the aces, like CC and Burnett, LESS starts next year, and weakens the bullpen by putting both Chamberlain and Hughes in the rotation.
It’s good to have a surplus of starting pitching, but a 6 man wouldn’t make much sense to me.
I really wish there was an option for neither...
Honestly, I think both should stay in the bullpen, and perhaps give Chad Gaudin a chance to start as the #5 pitcher. Obviously it’s not going to happen, and I won’t be upset when either Hughes or Joba is moved to the starter role, but I just feel that with both Joba & Hughes in the pen, the Yankees have the most dominant bullpen in MLB, which will carry them a long long way.
Either way, as someone said up above, if this is the biggest problem the Yankees are facing for the ‘10 season, we’re looking pretty damn good.
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 24, 2009 12:12 AM EST reply actions
Interesting
I’ve weighed that option, too, but both could also turn out to be top tier starters. What a nice dilemma to have.
joba is starting...
Hughes to the pen…..that’s how its gonna be until next offseason when they both can really battle it out…..
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Getcha' Fuccin Rings Up........
by NYYWinsRings27 on Dec 24, 2009 10:03 AM EST via mobile reply actions
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