Why I Love the Vazquez Deal
by Brandon C. on Dec 23, 2009 10:00 AM EST
in Analysis
60 comments
Many Yankees fans seem to be up in arms over this five-player deal. The Yankees got Javier Vazquez and Boone Logan, while the Braves got Melky Cabrera, Mike Dunn, and Arodys Vizcaino in the deal, which was announced last night.
Basically, the Yankees received a quality 3rd-4th starter for a 2nd Outfielder at best (probably 3rd), a lefty-reliever that throws hard but has little control, and a prospect that was last seen in Staten Island.
So, I ask, why the scrutiny?
The Yankees got the 3rd starter that they were looking for this entire offseason, while giving away replaceable parts. How exactly do you replace these players? Here is how:
Melky Cabrera: Currently, the man replacing Cabrera is Brett Gardner. In the future we may see the Yankees sign either Mark DeRosa or Johnny Damon. If the Yankees stick with Gardner it is a slight deduction in overall play. Melky has a better arm, while Gardner is faster. Melky has an OK amount of power, while Gardner can get the little hits that help win games. If the Yankees sign DeRosa or Damon, it is an immediate improvement in left.
Mike Dunn: Currently the man replacing Dunn is Logan. Logan was the other pitcher acquired in the deal with the Braves. Dunn looks like he will have a bright career as a lefty-reliever, while the Yankees are left with only two real lefty relievers of their own. Damaso Marte is a lock, while Logan looks like an up in the air candidate to make the team. Do the Yankees go into the season with one lefty? Is Zach Kroenke returned by the Diamondbacks? We will see. Overall, Dunn might be the worst piece lost in the trade.
Arodys Vizcaino: Since he pitched last year in Staten Island, the Yankees really do not lose anything from their current team. He might have a great career, but it will certainly not start in 2010.
One More Note: Seems like many fans are only upset because, well, he is Melky!
Look at it this way:
If the Yankees acquired Melky Vazquez and Boone Logan for Javier Cabrera, Mike Dunn, and Arodys Vizcaino wouldn't that be amazing news? Just saying.
TRADE GRADE: I give it a B+ because the Yankees can replace the players traded and the Yankees get a top-notch starter in Vazquez. The only way this can go wrong is if the Yankees cannot replace Dunn, OR Vazquez struggles in the Bronx. Now, if the Yankees traded Cervelli....it is obviously an F. Francisco Cervelli can not and will not be traded! (Shoutout to the Cervelli Fan Club!)
Quick Update: ESPNEWS' bottom line says "Yankees swap Melky Cabrera for Braves' Javier Vazquez" So...Mike Dunn and the #2 prospect in the Yankees farm systemaccording to Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus, Arodys Vizcaino don't matter? Just pointing that out....
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Overall, Dunn might be the worst piece lost in the trade.
Not a chance. They’re both 25 years old in 2010. Dunn’s WHIP has been above 1.4 at every level since high A. They’re K/BB ratios are similar.
Dunn’s only advantage is that he has more years under team control.
This trade is an A, maybe an A+.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Yeah but it leaves Gardner in left
so that drops it back to a B+ agree with Brandon on the grade unless left turns out differant.
by cashman bashman on Dec 23, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Why this groupthink
that Melky is any better than Gardner? Gardner won the CF slot out of camp last year.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Dec 23, 2009 10:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
yea...
I don’t understand it either.
Why the hell is the OF such a weakness…the “worst in the league” I’ve seen written numerous times.
Why is it any ""worse"" with Gardner over Melky?
Melky is better..yes. But the difference is marginal.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
i disagree
I do not see how Melky is “better”. He has more power, yes, but Gardner is the superior defensive player and has lots more speed.
See...
there ya go. I don’t understand how others are saying that losing Melky makes the OF any worse.
An argument can obviously be made that Gardner is better.
Tho…I disagree with Gardner being better. Melky can track down a ball as good as Gardner..and has a 10x stronger arm.
Garner has more speed..Melky more power and an overall better bat. Melky’s not a fat slob either..he’s pretty fast.
Melky was good. Give him credit. He’s can be a starting OF…but better suited as a 4th OF or platoon OF.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Im not saying either is way better
Im saying now there is not that platoon that worked so well last yr making the position better then average.Christ almighty a B+ isn’t that bad.
by cashman bashman on Dec 23, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
not reall ripping on you...
I agree, the B+ for our OF is about right, cuz there is a hole in LF even if the CF and RF are pretty damn good.
I’m just saying..how does having Melky in LF to Gardner, for some people, make the OF that much weaker?
Not directed at you..just in general…
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Gardner
Is my 2nd favorite player. I personally think he is only slightly worse than Melki. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
by Brandon C. on Dec 23, 2009 3:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I actually give Gardner a
bit of an edge over Melky in this
lineup if only because, hitting before Jeter, Gardner’s likely to steal 2nd & avoid a DP ball, which the Cap’n is fond of.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Dec 23, 2009 3:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
All that equals to
A late innings defensive replacement. That is what Gardner is he is a guy that you put in in the game late to steal you a base or play defense. With the bat he is nothing but a easy out.
I really wish
they would have traded Gardner to the White Sox when they were asking about him. It is easy to find a speed guy that can run the bases. Hey he is not that much faster than Freddy Guzman that they had last year. WHy are you not crying to keep him.
GARDNER SUCKS!!!!!!
You suck.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Dec 23, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you, David
C’mon, gang. If all you’ve got is ‘you suck,’ that isn’t worth posting. Try a little civility, and if you haven’t got something that adds to the conversation then please don’t post it.
by Ed Valentine on Dec 24, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
The guy had
a .345 OBP. It’s certainly reasonable to think he could reach base in 40% of his ABs next year. He’s got another year of MLB plate experience.
I’m not saying he’s anything amazing at the plate. But having a guy on 2nd base, after a walk and a steal, say, is valuable when the lineup turns over. Cash very well may be true to his word that BG is the starting LF, not just trying to play the big guns still on the market.
We are the MFY: we are greedy bastards. On any other club, the off-season moves would be compete with the trade for Javy. We, however, want Serial Murderer’s Row.
Gardner is a viable LF option. I still hold out hope for Damon, but Gardner could be the guy & it wouldn’t be the end of the world.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Dec 23, 2009 4:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
and
he lost it in a couple of weeks.
there’s some platoon effects going on in the whole Melky / Gardner saga last year and Giradi generally played the hot hand well, so it would be interesting (and potentially scary) to see how that turns out
by RollingWave on Dec 23, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
If Gardner is in the opening day lineup
Why wouldn’t he play center over Granderson?
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by RangerSmurf on Dec 23, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Grandy is a better CF.
I trust the veteran manning the CF position then the younger dude.
Don’t underrated Granderson’s speed…he’s probably not much slower then Gardner, if at all.
He’s got a slightly better arm too.
Gardner doesn’t take the best routes to the ball out there either…Granderson is very good at that.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
I swore I read
That Gardner’s UZR was better. I mean, I don’t at all understand those weird fielding metrics and what they’re supposed to be telling us…but swore I read that Gardner was the better (statisitcally) CF.
And yeah, I know Granderson’s fast. Not Crawford or Reyes fast, but Gardner fast yeah.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by RangerSmurf on Dec 23, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
UZR
is a pretty bad statistic for measuring OF.
Watching the player play….or getting the idea from Tigers fans..Granderson is NOT an average CF.
He’s an excellent CF.
Gardner doesn’t have a big sample size anyway.
He’s a little scary out there too.
Granderson definitely gets the CF spot. You don’t move him out of his position. I know he can play LF…but I’d rather have him in CF.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
Gardner had a better UZR last year
but it was only a partial season so it’s not anything definitive.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Dec 23, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Ok, maybe that’s what I saw. Thanks.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by RangerSmurf on Dec 23, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
And UZR is notoriously fickle from season to season- we really need 3 full seasons at a position to speak definitively.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Cash wants Grandy in CF
and has stated so several times. Put that one to rest – CG will play center and do a pretty good job.
I like Melky but he was a very replacable player for the Yankees.
Gardner in LF ain’t bad. I will be OK starting the season that way. Trades later on are always possible.
Melky in center and Damon in left vs Grandy and Gardner? Slight dropoff in offense but younger and cheaper with better D.
Dunn might come back to haunt us but we will not know for 2-3 years.
The key is this – given the age of key NYY players ( Posada, Jeter, Mariano et al) this team needs to win NOW. To put together 2-3 rings in a row would be great because when the core gets old together that may be hard to do.
Gardner in LF
Is Johnny Damon with out the power. The guy has no arm. Get use to seeing guy to from first to third on balls hit to him in left.
He's got a better arm then damon.....
not saying much, but he does.
No one ran on Damon either, he threw out plenty of runners…
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Damon isn't gone yet
he has a much better chance of coming back now than before this trade was made. Could you imagine this offense if Damon comes back? Along with the pitching staff? It’s a team that should be the favorite to win, I’ll tell you that (in fact, they should be the favorite to win already).
Love This Deal!
I think Cashman made a great move here, although I am sad to see Melky go. Even if we don’t pick up another outfielder and Gardner starts the season in left, I really don’t think he will be a starter come the trade deadline. Unless of course he is having a remarkable season, and then we most likely won’t be complaining.
Melky provided versatility in the OF
He could basically play all three positions. There is no way you stick Gardner in right with his arm.
All that said, I’m not adamantly opposed to the trade. I like Vasquez but …… he has one year left on his contract and he’s not getting any younger. The Yanks gave up three young players …….. two who have potential and one who has a proven record as an above-average outfielder who has demonstrated an ability for clutch hitting. We’ll see how this plays out. I have always liked Vasquez and will obviously be pulling for him. We probably won’t have a clear idea, though, of the value of this trade until much later in the season.
I was a fan who was all about improving the rotation this offseason
So it would be hypocritical for me to bash the move that was made. Somebody had to go,too bad it was Melky. I’ll miss him. I really wanted to see him and Robbie develop and come up together being that they are so tight.
But the fact remains that the Yankees have improved on a more important weakness and still have time to salvage the LF spot. Like a co-worker and fellow Yankee fan said to me…..“if you’re making an omlette, you gotta break a few eggs….” Good luck Melky!!!! And thanks Hideki for the memories!!!!! I just watched Game 7 2003 ALCS on MLB Network Monday and I still get chills from Godzilla’s double in that rally!!! Anyway, its time t think repeat,and success starts with pitching.
Anybody in the mood for a repeat?
by ReggieARodJeter on Dec 23, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions
why i hate the vazquez deal
now i have to hear about joba v hughes AGAIN
you were gonna hear about it anyway...
the Yanks weren’t going into the season with them as their 4 and 5.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Joba
Needs to go back to the bullpen…Because he was not impressive as a starter.
One year.
One year says Javy Vazquez was never impressive as a starter.
One year saying one thing..means give him more time.
Too small a sample.
"It ain't over till its over"---
3rd down + Steve Smith = 1st Down.
"I just saw Avatar, and Sean Avery was hands down the best character!"
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 23, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe Damon
Will realize that he made a mistake and come back and sign at 5-7 million for one year. We all know that they Yankees are planning to be big players in the free agent market. And make a run at Carl Crawford. I would love to have Crawford, Grandy and Swish in the outfield
I don't like Crawford
Could just be that he plays for the Rays though?
Anyone who mentions salary caps as an answer is unemployed.
by cashman bashman on Dec 23, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions
I love this trade
they got a terrific pitching that last season, was one of the best in baseball, for an average outfielder, and two unproven relievers. I’ll miss Melky, but sometimes you have to give guys up to get better. Vasquez makes the rotation better, and the bullpen better (because it pushes one of Joba/Hughes to the pen).
I’ll love it even more if the Yankees manage to bring Johnny Damon back again. The offense w/ Damon in it, plus this pitching staff? They’d be good to go and defend their title.
I like the trade also...
Nothing to complain about…
But damon isn’t coming back…I think DeRosa may be a little more accurate of a guess…
-Announcemen Forwarded To The Following: Boston Blowsox, New York Pets, Philadelphia Phonies, And Any Other Team Who Ain't The With The Empire.................
Getcha' Fuccin Rings Up........
by NYYWinsRings27 on Dec 23, 2009 5:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions
If it ain't Damon,
it’s Gardner. That’s who my money’s on.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Dec 23, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
We won countless games off of Melky's bat this season........
He had the most walk off wins…. he was great for team Chemistry.
I don’t see Vasquez as an ace…He is a pitcher capable of filling the 4th spot…. I think we should have passed on Granderson…. Re-signed Damon…. And just went after pitching…. Pitching is the only thing we needed…
by Gangsta Yanksta on Dec 23, 2009 5:59 PM EST reply actions
Cashman isn't done yet
I don’t think they are going into the season with Brett Gardner in the everyday lineup. My bet is that Cashman in laying low in the Bay or Holliday deals. Bay is holding out from signing with the Mutts for some reason and Boras is known to play a waiting game. Or he might be waiting for Damon to come to his senses.
Cashman isn’t done
I like it but I don't.
"A picture is worth a thousand words, whereas a thousand words only equals one picture."-Yogi Berra
Melky vs. Gardner
I think what is driving me nuts about this trade is people insisting that Gardner is somehow superior to Melky. I’m sorry, but Gardner is not better than Melky. I don’t really care that Gardener was better in spring training last year, Melky was the one playing in the World Series. All Gardner has on Melky is speed. It’s not like Melky can’t run at all, he is a decent runner. Gardner is not an improvement over Melky at all in my mind. Plus Vazquez has 1 year left in his contract and we all know by next year he is going to be asking for more money and years than the Yankees will want to give him. Melky is young and was steadily improving. We all know that he was an important part of the Yankees winning this past year. No, he is not an all star, but who cares. Ok, thats my two cents. I can’t stand to think that Gardner will be in LF everyday. Though, I am realistic. It is only December, I hope things change by the time April comes along. I just don’t see the Yankees getting Bay, Holliday, or Damon (unless he dramatically drops his price and gets realistic).
by oywiththepoodlesalready on Dec 23, 2009 10:33 PM EST reply actions
No one is insisting that
It’s just that people think that Melky has come close to reaching his ceiling. Meanwhile, Gardner has limited MLB experience and optimism persists that he can still get better.
Yes, Melky was integral piece this past season but, for the Yankees, his production as an outfielder is relatively easy to replace.
by Scooby Snacks on Dec 24, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
Who?
Thinks Melky is “close to reaching his ceiling”? Bloggers? Melky’s got way more up side. Switch-hitter; better arm; and some power, of which Gardner has 0. Gardner will be what he is: A powerless PR who doesn’t add anything to the team but speed… as a PR.
I'm pretty sure
One could describe Juan Pierre as a powerless PR who only adds speed too. He’s lasted a pretty long time in the league, though yes, his BA was slightly higher at this age. But OPS was basically identical (.734 to .724)
If Gardner can go 400 AB, hit .280 (he hit .270 in 280 AB last year), steal 40-50 bases, and play good defense, he’s quite valuable to this lineup.
I think it’s just greed….it’d be nice to have 30 HR power at every position but it’s not always practical. Gardner will be perfectly acceptable.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Gardner has more potiental
I like Gardner Someone (during spring Training) needs to teach him how to hit. When he swings at a ball both feet are flat on the ground resulting in a slapping motion at the ball. By shifting his weight onto his right foot he can better turn on the ball generating more power. He won’t hit 30 HRs but he can drive the ball better and with his speed singles will often turn into doubles and if the can do this I think he’d become a decent lead off hitter much
Final pros and cons on Melky
1. Yes, he came along way from the kid who kept dropping fly balls. ()
2. He’s a Yankee. He should have leaned to speak English for the fans. (-)
3. He overachieved in the clutch. ()
4. He looked like a major slob in Pinstripes. (-)
5. He’s not a special player. (-)
I think the cons outweigh the pros here.
Gardner
Is a major plus. Think Jacob Ellsbury. Gardy will grow into his role, amx out at 15hrs/year just like Melky, terrorize pitchers and catchers. And best of all, he does not look like a clown in pinstripes.
15 HR a year for Gardner?
really? Not unless they move the fences to little league distance. Gardner doesn’t have ANY power, and I don’t really think he’ll gain any power either. Thats not his game. I’d think maybe 5 HR a year. And 1-2 of those will probably be an inside the park HR.
Gardner =
Not an everyday player. Not the answer in the outfield. Javier Vasquez = someone who couldn’t cut it here a few years ago & a guy who had a good year in the national league last year & not the answer in the pitching rotation. So far no one convinced me this is a good trade. At best it’s a wash.
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