Around the Yankees..Galaxy?, Monday, 12/14/2009
by 3460kuri on Dec 14, 2009 8:34 AM EST
in News
56 comments
I think "galaxy" works, so we don't have to worry about getting sued.
-It seems like Brian Cashman has gone all Bernie Williams on Chien-Ming Wang, ending his Yankees career for all intents and purposes. I’m beating a dead horse here, but I don’t get it. Nobody, not even Wang’s agent it seems, was expecting anything unrealistic. But a non-guaranteed, minor-league deal? Rich Harden just got $6.5 million guaranteed for crying out loud, and while he’s is more talented, I’d bet on anybody (Wang included) to pitch more innings than Harden next season. We’re going to have to trust that Cashman knows something we don't, but I’m worried this move will could back to bite the Yankees.
-Something isn't adding up with Johnny Damon. Jon Heyman was reporting that Scott Boras was basically asking for a redux of his last contract, but Damon is saying that's not true. It’s easy to revile Boras, but it is his job to earn the most he can for his clients, and he usually does his job well. We’ll see what happens, though; even
-No new developments on the chances of trading Brett Gardner. As much as I like seeing a home-grown player make a contribution with the big league club, I think
-Chad Jennings over at LoHud posted a great rundown of the Yankees rotation depth as of right now.
-Brian Cashman is kidding, I hope.
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how many players actually get on base at an exceptionally high rate…. 10-15 in the entire majors? It seems Brett actually does play great defense. Gardner is better than Melky.
I would have to agrre with all of that
and how many players have Gardy’s exceptional speed? He might be the fastest man in MLB, at least right up there. People often underrate tools that aren’t HR’s and way way way overrate HR’s (and pitch velocity).
by Peter Lacock on Dec 14, 2009 7:30 AM EST up reply actions
Listen, I am not saying that Brett Gardner is a terrible, useless baseball player.. What I am saying is that some GMs and managers have the tendency to overvalue certain players based on their speed, while overlooking other aspects of their game. The Yankees should be poised to take advantage of this if the opportunity arises.
Among AL players who came to bat as many times as he did in 2009, Gardner’s .345 OBP was 63rd best in the American League. The AL as a whole got on base at a .335 clip. It’s far from terrible, but equally far from excellent. Defensive metrics are mixed; Baseball Prospectus had Gardner as below average last season (-6 FRAA) while Fangraphs had him as well above-average (7.2 UZR). I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that with his speed, he’s probably an above average defensive outfielder.
Realistically, though, Gardner doesn’t hit well enough to play anywhere but center )and even that’s a bit of a stretch) and the Yankees have a superior option there in Curtis Granderson anyway. He’s probably best suited for fourth-outfielder duty, as his speed will allow him to play all three defensive positions well, and his bat is decent enough that it won’t kill a team should an injury force him into the lineup for an extended period, but the Yankees already have at least one and perhaps two fourth outfielders, depending on how you view Melky Cabrera.
The trade rumors said that both the White Sox and Royals viewed Gardner not as a fourth outfielder but as a leadoff hitter. So if either team is willing to trade something the Yankees need, shouldn’t Cashman be more than happy to sell high from a position of strength?
Maybe, but it would have to be someone great in return, and
if other GM’s think he is a starter and a leadoff hitter, then wouldn’t we want to keep him!!!
No
because those GMs are idiots, but we aren’t going to tell them that until we have a favorable trade agreement.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
by Lord Duggan on Dec 14, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly
First, where is Gardner going to play for the Yankees in 2010 and beyond? I think we’re all in agreement that his bat simply isn’t good enough to play in either outfield corner, and he’s blocked by a clearly superior player in center.
Second, and this is exactly the type of misconception I was talking about, Gardner is not a leadoff hitter. Leadoff hitters usually get more plate appearances than anyone else on the team, and it’s their job to get on base (not steal bases), which is something that Gardner does not do well enough to justify this role.
Does anyone even read through the threads here anymore.
All the Yankees did was non-tender him for arbitration. Had they done so they would have had to pay him an absurd amount of money. By rule they could not offer him a non-guaranteed, minor-league deal at this point. They can still offer him a low-risk, incentive-laden contract later. It has been said over and over in the comments and yet people keep posting diaries lamenting the fact that they did not make a fool decision that would have brought Wang back at at least $4,000,000 and probably more.
Wang has been hurt for two seasons and will not be ready until May at the earliest. Letting him go to aribitration would have been stupid.
I hear that
and I don’t get what there is to not get about this. It’s pretty simple if you look at it objectively.
by Peter Lacock on Dec 14, 2009 7:32 AM EST up reply actions
According to the link, the Yankees offered him a non-guaranteed, minor league contract in lieu of offering him arbitration.
That is stupid.
With all due respect,
you do sound emotional here. They couldn’t offer him a guaranteed contract while he’s arbitration-eligible… that’s the way the rules work. Now that they’ve non-tendered him, they can offer whatever sort of deal they wish. Could be nothing… I don’t think that will be the case. Could be a crazy-rich deal that’s above the allowable ceiling for arbitration… I don’t think that’s the case, either. Most likely is an offer with guaranteed money that comes in somewhat lower than $4 million.
For Wang’s part, at the end of the day this is a business decision. If no other team is willing to offer better than what the Yankees eventually do (assuming I’m right about the above), Wang is very likely to re-sign with the Yankees.
The decision for the Yankees as well as all the other teams is this: how much do they want to guarantee to a pitcher who will be 30 in 2010, just had shoulder surgery, has been largely on the shelf for the past 2 seasons, and was spectacularly ineffective when he did pitch?
I like Wang and I understand why the Yankees are approaching things the way they are.
It's a little more complicated, isn't it?
By non-tendering, the Yankees have given up the right to negotiate with Wang until May, so there’s a good chance there won’t be a later in which they can offer him a low-risk contract. If I were he, I wouldn’t wait around.
That being said, I tend to agree with the people who think the Yankees must know something about his medical reports.
Usqueadbaugham! Anam muck an dhoul ! Did ye drink me doornail?
Unless you have access to Wang's medical reports...
…I really don’t think you can comment one way or the other on what the Yankees did.
And as several people have already commented, they can still sign him. Paying him a guaranteed $4 million when you have no idea what he’ll give you makes no sense.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 12:45 AM EST reply actions
That statement
‘Paying him a guaranteed $4 million when you have no idea what he’ll give you makes no sense.’
says all that needs said. Debating re-signing him is all well and good but debating non-tendering him is mindless and completely emotional.
by Peter Lacock on Dec 14, 2009 7:41 AM EST up reply actions
Juan Miranda has earned a chance to play in the majors
He has done enough in the minors that he deserves a chance to prove if he can do it at the highest level.
I agree he deserves a shot. So if he gets traded I’ll be happy for him. But I want a more experienced hitter to be the LF or DH.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Your viewpoint is certainly valid.
At the same time, what if we had taken your approach with Bernie Williams? Or Jeter? Or Mattingly? Or Posada? Or Pettitte? Or Mo? It took Bernie several seasons to develop into a star. It wasn’t at all clear in the beginning that Jeter could field SS at all, or that Mo could make it as a MLB pitcher, or that Mattingly could even reach MLB level as more than a reserve player. And on and on. At some point you have to take a little bit of a risk and try some of these guys. No risk, no reward… and the rewards from all the above, plus others, have been pretty good, haven’t they?
The Yankees had Tony Fernandez around as insurance in 1996.
Bernie Williams would have been acceptable as a defense first CF.
Rivera was tried as a starter before emerging as a setup man for Wettland.
I’m not saying the Yanks should trade for Pujols to DH, or even that they HAVE to sign Matsui. But if we’re putting Melky in LF, I want a better hitter at DH to maintain the advantage our lineup has over the rest of the league.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Gardner-"Good but not great defense"?
Really? I think you could classify his defense better than good.
He has made plenty of great diving plays in centerfield and can cover ground with the best of them.
His arm is just good not great but overall we could say that he is in a group of the best right now. Which would classify as great.
Also, we dot know for sure yet if “doesn’t get on base at an exceptionally high clip.”
He hasn’t had a full season yet and he was .345 last year. I think he could definitely get up to a .375-.390 OBS. Which would be considered a high clip.
I’ll add to this a little. Since when did we decide that it’s not possible for a player to improve his game at the MLB level? And when did we determine that a player’s platoon performance (not full time) in his first MLB season was indicative of the best he ever could do?
Remember Bernie Williams? He improved steadily at the MLB level for several years, like clockwork. Should we have thrown him away after his first season because we just KNEW he would never amount to anything better?
Guys, this is NOT an argument to play Gardner fulltime or even not to trade him (and it’s not an argument that Gardner is another Bernie), but it’s absurd to think we know all there is to know about what Brett Gardner is capable of achieving from what we’ve seen so far. We know some things, but certainly not everything.
Yea but you can’t keep a guy on the MLB roster or say he’s going to be a superstar because “Bernie Williams turned out to be a superstar after a subpar rookie season”. That kind of thinking would make teams keep all of their bad players that don’t produce. I’m not saying he’s a bad OF, but you can’t be calling him the next Bernie Williams.
His value might go higher, but there’s a bigger chance that it’s gonna go lower, which is what I think Cashman&Co. are thinking right now.
And who says were trading Gardner anyway. I’d trade Melky sooner than Gardner.
I’m sure you read in my post that I did not call Gardner the next Bernie Williams… in fact, I said the exact opposite of that.
The type of thinking you’re suggesting is what led to the Yankees signing star after star after star as free agents all through the 1980s while letting their own minor league system languish, and what did we get from all that? A whole bunch of bad contracts, a number of our own former minor leaguers going on to star elsewhere, and not a single playoff appearance to our credit from 1982 through 1994.
There has to be a middle ground.
Hang on a minute
I agree with you, there does have to be a middle ground. And while nobody has a crystal ball, you need to look at the information that’s available to you – like minor league stats and scouting reports – to make your best guess as to how a particular player projects in the majors.
Bernie Williams is a poor comparison. He reached the majors at the relatively young age of 22, and established himself as an above-average major league hitter by age 23 (at least according to OPS+). You can also add the fact that Bernie hit for power in the minors, especially in AAA (.158 Isolated Slugging percentage). If you were sitting in the Yankees’ front office after the 1991 season, there were reasons to believe that he’d become a good major league player.
Brett Gardner’s first semi-full major league season is very similar to Bernie Williams’ – both posted an OPS+ in the low 90s. The only difference is Gardner was 25 during his first season while Bernie was only 22, which is HUGE. Being able to perform well against competition that’s significantly older is a huge indicator of future success. It’s not to say that Gardner can’t turn into a good hitter, but given his age, and his minor league numbers, at this point it’s going to be the exception rather than the rule. Historically, very few players are late bloomers.
I’m not advocating that Cashman just dump Gardner. But knowing what he is (and knowing what he isn’t), and with the presence of a better option in center, I think the team should be willing to trade him for a good reliever or somebody who can help the team out in some other way.
HAng on a minute???
So 26 is apparently old?
The guy can flat out run and steal and play centerfield with the best in the league, period.
Why trade that when we don’t have anyone else like that on our team, next to Granderson, which by the way K’s alot and has a .327 OBP last year.
It doesn’t make sense to trade him. Unless for a great starting pitcher. Halladay? LOL it is always fun to bring that name up!
Keep Gardner!
I’m with kuri on having to be WILLING to trade Gardner, so long as it’s an intelligent transaction and makes the team better… NOT a knee-jerk trade just for the sake of trading. Gardner has value to us if we keep him, and it’s POSSIBLE we can improve on the value with the right acquisition… but that remains to be seen. It’s gonna be interesting!
You're missing my point
Hitters typically improve (relative to their own skill set) as they get older, usually reaching their peak somewhere around age 27-30. That is a proven fact. So, when you look at player’s career performance so far, and then look at his age relative to the 27-30 peak, you can make some educated guesses as to how much he might improve as a hitter.
In Gardner’s case, his 2,200 appearances as a professional ballplayer tell us he’s got no power, and decent (but not spectacular) on-base skills. He’s also 26, and much closer to the typical peak seasons than somebody like Melky Cabrera. So, in that context, yes, 26 is pretty old to be talking about a player’s potential.
Gardner might hit .280/.360/.400 one of these seasons, but that’s not really huge jump from where he’s at now, and is still not a better option than Granderson in center. Sure, he may buck the odds and make some unexpected improvement in his early 30s, but you can probably count the number of players who have done that one one hand.
He’s a useful player, but not an untouchable player. He is a good fourth outfielder, but if some team values him more than that, and is willing to pay accordingly in a trade, Cashman should oblige.
GGBG
is the kind of guy that is more valuable to the Yankees than a lot of other teams. he’ll probably never be good enough to start on the Yanks, but his qualities are absolutely perfect for a bench player: speed and defense, of which he ranks among the best in MLB.
when you only ask him to pinch-run and play D, his negative qualities (lack of power) are diminished. if he was on the Royals, he’d be getting 4-5 PA/game, and that would really decrease his value.
if Cash can’t find a trade that makes the Yankees a better team now and/or in the future (iow, don’t just trade him simply bc he’s at peak value), then there’s no reason to do it. having GGBG on the 2010 Yanks is truly an asset. for the role he has, there’s hardly a better player in MLB.
Gotta say, the one thing I like about Gardner off the bench is that he typically enters the game as a pinch runner… that nullifies his possible troubles with OBP… and it lets him use his best attribute, namely his speed, to full advantage. The Yankees don’t usually have guys who can have such an impact on a game by virtue of speed, hasn’t been since WAY back with Rickey Henderson, really… IMHO that gives the team another dimension and ultimately makes the offense better.
Yeah, his speed is amazing...
…which is why he was thrown out both times he tried to steal against the Angels.
Everyone wants Gardner to succeed, but some people are unrealistic in their expectations. He’s going to be 26 years old and has yet to prove that he can hit major league pitching. Comparisons to Bernie Williams? Absurd, Bernie was 22 when he came up and was already a better hitter than Gardner. The window on Gardner’s ability to improve is closing every day, and if the Yankees can include him in a trade for someone that will help them, they’d be stupid to hang onto him just because he’s fast and gritty.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Who's comparing Gardner to Bernie!?!
And where exactly is your argument? If we can work a trade for additional value, great! If not, Gardner will have value to the Yankees. Case closed.
Up in the thread...
…and you compared him to Rickey Henderson.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
My gosh
your reading skills could stand some improvement.
What I actually said with respect to Bernie:
“Guys, this is NOT an argument to play Gardner fulltime or even not to trade him (and it’s not an argument that Gardner is another Bernie)”
In other words, Gardner is not another Bernie.
What I actually said with respect to Henderson:
“The Yankees don’t usually have guys who can have such an impact on a game by virtue of speed, hasn’t been since WAY back with Rickey Henderson, really…”
In other words, Gardner is fast. A baserunner with that much speed can distract a pitcher and disrupt a defense. The Yankees don’t normally have those kind of guys. A long time ago, Rickey Henderson did that sort of stuff on the Yankees. Nowhere do I equate Gardner to Rickey Henderson in any way other than the fact that Gardner is fast and Henderson used to be fast a long time ago.
I sell glasses.
If you guys need them, apparently ya do! Good job Pistriper for re-quoting your self. They like to twist things up here sometimes. New York Sports Jerk — ya need to read better and think before ya speak. DEE DEE DEE
Yes, Gardner's SPEED is comparable
Henderson also had power and got on base ALL THE TIME. Speed is only useful when a player has the ability to use it.
Gardner is a fine spare part, but you people are expecting him to make some leap at 26 years old that just doesn’t happen.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
LMAO
87% That’s all? Not enough? These are the same people that would rather see Swisher strike out every AB in the post season instead of anybody else batting for him.
Swisher is the one that should be traded. Plenty of value right now for him, tons of value.
Which is a useless number...
…if he can’t get on base.
And McDaniel, keep talking about strikeouts. At least Swisher delivers a little pop with his K numbers, what is Gardner giving you for all the strikeouts he brings?
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
So how did he have the opportunity to make 45 attempts
if he was never on base?
And which Yankee had 39 steals in the past 5 years?
Did you bump your head NY sportsjerk?
Swisher also delivers one of the worst base running skills in all of baseball. Great post season, anyways, that isn’t the point.
Yes , stealing 87% of the time is a very meaningful number.
You are the only guy that is arguing about Gardner and his steals. LMAO
How many times did Swisher get picked off and make bone head base running errors.
I watched 97% of the games this year and i can honestly say at least 25-35 times this year he either over ran first, second, or gets picked off because he wasn’t paying attention or was too greedy.
Okay, you win...
…Brett Gardner is definitely a better baserunner than Nick Swisher. Now, when baserunning becomes that only important skill in baseball, perhaps that will be relevant to the conversation.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
OK, why not try to trade Melky or Swisher then?
You can use the same reasoning on these two players as well.
Actually I would say Swisher had his career year already last year, so why not trade him?
But your point is correct in saying that Gardner does have value to other teams in the league. But that doesn’t make it ok to trade him. We would have to get something great in return, and not just an average reliever.
Oh, and TRAVISG, “he’ll probably never be good enough to start on the Yanks”, maybe, except for the fact he started centerfield for the first half of the year for the Yanks, which consequentially, they won the WORLD SERIES.
I would put Granderson in Left , he has the better arm , and with both him and Gardner, well that could be the two quickest players on the field next to, Crawford and Upton.
Just admit you have a hardon for Gardner...
…and get it over with. Suggesting they shouldn’t consider trading him is ridiculous. What has he done to be so indispensable in your eyes?
They won the World Series DESPITE his presence in the lineup, unless you were particularly impressed by his 0-10 with 4 strikeout performance against Philly.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
By the same logic
the Phillies should trade Ryan Howard, right? How many strikeouts did he have in the WS?
As for Gardner, if we can trade for additional value, trade. If not, hold. Simple.
Please stop
Hitting for power
Getting on base
Playing defense
Some combination of these things are what makes a good ballplayer.
You can play in the majors if you do one of them extraordinarily well. Or if you do two of them pretty well. Or if you’re competent, but not great, at all three.
So Ryan Howard isn’t in this conversation. His defense at first is adequate, his on-base skills are above average, and his power is phenomenal.
Brett Gardner? His defense is good, his on-base skills are slightly above average, and his power is non-existent.
How is that the same logic?
Howard has won an MVP award, an NLCS MVP award, the rookie of the year … he had a bad series.
Gardner has done nothing, ever.
If that’s what you think is the “same logic” I have no idea what to tell you.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Your a DB, and yes....
maybe a chub, but that is besides the fact that, i feel Swisher and Melky would give more in return than Gardner.
They also won with Swisher stinking up the whole post season so, invalid point Sports Jerk.
What has he done? All I want is for him to come back and get another shot at starting , that’s it. He won it last season .
If he fails this pre-season then fine, he is a great asset off the bench.
So what's your argument...
…if Swisher and Melky would bring more in return, doesn’t that mean they’re both better players?
If that’s the case, why are you so opposed to trading Gardner if they already have two more valuable players on the roster?
Or are you just suggesting Swish/Melky would bring back more of a return so the Yanks don’t trade your man-crush?
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Also, it's "you're"
As in, “you’re a DB.”
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
they also won with Gardner stinking up in the playoffs.
What’s your point?
Gardner is a bench player.
Swisher was one of their better hitters.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 14, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Better hitters , when? Yeah swish has a great batting average.
And NY Sports jerk, you would be a fool not to agree with the fact that Swisher is at his top value right now, so if you were to trade one of them i would trade swisher instantly. we could get a whole hell of a lot more with him right now. He definately isnt going to get any better.
And really?? it isn’t a man crush, it is the fact that he actually plays hard, is gritty, quick, and if some dare teaches him how to slap the ball then he is one base more, but batting .280+ isn’t a bad thing either.
And you are a D B.
I can live with it.
You’re in love with a slap-hitter because he’s gritty. Good for you.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 14, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
GGBG...
good, wow.
I like what he brings to the table, but he’s not a starter.
Swisher’s career production for his salary is damn good.
What could we get for Swisher? WHAT?
We have a good player out there, better than Gardner for sure.
Gardner is a PR.
Swisher is a power hitter, a run producer, a guy who gets on (more than Gardner…)
Swisher’s year last year is right at his career norms.
Since you are only looking at BA…you obviously have no clue on what his actual value is.
Do you think Adam Dunn sucks too cuz he K’s a lot? Ryan Howard? Or are they ‘different’?
They are. They also make twice as much as Swisher and are 10x WORSE fielders.
What Swisher brings to the Yankees FAAAAR outweighs his trade value, cuz there’s nothing out there to replace him.
"It ain't over till its over"---
How come no one covers Steve Smith?
by FreeBradshaw on Dec 14, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
i agree
that if the team remains as is, Grandy should be the LFer, with CF manned by Melky/Gardner/Hoffmann. CG has been a below average CFer the last two years (combined) while Melky/GGBG/Hoffmann have been above-average to great.
perhaps i should clarify between has started and should start. GGBG is not a guy you want getting 4 PA/game. the Yanks could get a better hitter for CF (frankly, Melky’s a better pure hitter) and use Gardner where he’s most valuable: PR and LIDR.
You play to a players strength....
Once you do that you need not worry about his weaknesses. Basbeall isn’t like football and basketball in relation to match-ups. You put bret on the bench and use him in those late game situations when you need a pinch runner who can play the outfield if need be….That’s an asset.
If you trade Bret for someone else who is better with the bat and OBP. Then go ahead. But don’t trade him for someone just like him who can do just what he can. Makes no sense going sideways.
So hopefully if they do we get somebody who was worth a damn.
-Announcemen Forwarded To The Following: Boston Blowsox, New York Pets, Philadelphia Phonies, And Any Other Team Who Ain't The With The Empire.................
Getcha' Fuccin Rings Up........
by NYYWinsRings27 on Dec 14, 2009 12:08 PM EST via mobile reply actions
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