Retiring #51 (reopening comments for a good post)
by dwaa101 on Nov 30, 2009 4:22 PM EST
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PrintWith the HOF voting list coming out and baseball getting ready to honor great players, I thought it would be a nice time to reopen a great post about the Yankees giving their honors. Bernie Williams will always be a borderline candidate to deserve make Monument Park Bill James considers him a lock to make the HOF, so he probably should make it, but there are the skeptics. Here's the original post by rothstein:
Okay, as the world's biggest Bernie Williams fan, I can admit I've waited as long as I can to post this - but if the Yankees aren't planning on re-signing Bernie, and his repeated claims that he doesn't want to play anywhere else, at what point should we stop delaying the inevitable and just retire the number 51 that graced the real Yankee Stadium with...grace.
After the Jump, the facts...Bernie was the centerfielder and cleanup hitter for 4 World Series champion teams. As far as I know, that's only Mantle-Dimaggio territory.
Won a batting title, 4 Gold Gloves, made 5 All-Star teams, yadda yadda, all the numbers that everyone knows already, and was the AL's 2nd best centerfielder of the 90's.
Something that everyone forgets, injuries didn't just derail his career toward the end, the guy got injured every freaking summer. I distinctly remember putting up with Chad Curtis numerous times because he kept getting hurt, yet kept coming back and hitting .300 with 20-30 homers and over 100 RBI, every season. If it weren't for those injuries in his prime, guy would have been guaranteed 3,000 hits, and who knows what other statistically mindblowing figures.
Like Jeter and Mo, Bernie exemplified what it meant to be "a Yankee." No one gave him credit for being the heart and soul of the team, but you can ask any Red Sox fan, they'll talk trash about Jeter, but no one messed with Bernie. He was too cool, too awesome, and literally everyone quietly loved him, and I hope his number gets retired quickly so the young kids going to the new park can ask their dads who's number 51, and he'll tell the story of the 1996 ALCS when he carried us to our first Series since the 70s.
Am I right here? Is it time? Lemme hear it.
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Long overdue
I dont think there’s any way Bernie gets in the hall of fame, but his number being retired by the Yankees is long overdue. I hope they do it in 2010.
by Let's Talk About Tex Baby on Nov 30, 2009 5:56 PM EST reply actions
Of course his number should be retired
I’m surprised that there are ANY people who answered no on the poll. How could you answer no to that? If Mattingly got his plaque, then no question Bernie deserves one. Bernie was a better hitter than Mattingly, and Bernie won World Series.
If Reggie’s 2300 ABs deserve retirement, Bernie is an immortal lock.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Yes
it’s close, but I’d give Bernie the edge.
Bernie
.297
287 HR
1257 RBI
Mattingly
.307
222 HR
1,099 RBI
It’s very close, but Bernie is ahead of Mattingly in HR and RBI throughout their careers. Plus, Bernie was more consistent throughout his career than Mattingly was. And a switch hitter.
I agree with what you're saying but RBI is really really bad when comparing players.
Bernie was on GREAT yankee teams, Mattingly was on poop ones. Bernie probably had twice as many AB’s W/risp with Jeter and O’Neill hitting in front of him.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Nope.
I’m always hesitant to retire numbers, and if it were up to me the Yankees would have fewer retired numbers to begin with.
If you retire Bernie, then you have to retire O’Neill and Tino, in addition to the obvious Jeter/Rivera retirements.
Bernie was a great player to be sure, but I always thought that retiring a player’s number should be an honor reserved for the true legends. They should find a way to honor him without retiring his number permanently. Giving him a plaque as part of a larger “dynasty” display would be well-deserved, but is he so special that no Yankee should ever wear #51 again?
by New York Sports Jerk on Nov 30, 2009 9:32 PM EST reply actions
unfortunately if I'm
Going to be absolutely objective and responsible I agree. I was born in the early 80s so I fortunately witnessed the 90s Yankee dynasty at the pt of my life where fanhood is cemented and bernie is by far and will always be my favorite player of all time. He was my hero. But I guess, jst like the hof debate, that honor is due to the greatest of all time. Not jst really really really good players.
by BernBabyBern on Nov 30, 2009 10:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes he is that special
He was a career Yankee and the best long term Yankee center fielder for decades. Tino and O’Neill were great players who came, and played on some great teams after making their names elsewhere. By the conventions that have always governed the retiring of Yankee numbers he deserves that honor. Yes those conventions have led to many numbers being retired, maybe too many, but that does not mean that the players of the recent past and today, should not be treated the same as those from other eras.
Legends
“Legends” are defined by their times and the reason the Yankees have the most retired numbers is because they are the most storied and successful franchise in baseball history. If you look at the list of retired numbers for the Yankees and can name one player who isn’t a legend, I’ll eat my hat.
from http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/bbd-run.html
New York Yankees
player/number/years with team/when number was retired
Billy Martin (Player, Mgr.)/1 P 1950-57, M 1975-79, 1983, 1985, 1988/1986
Babe Ruth 3 1920-34 1948
Lou Gehrig 4 1923-39 1939
Joe DiMaggio 5 1936-51 1952
Mickey Mantle 7 1951-68 1969
Bill Dickey (Player, Mgr.) 8 P 1928-46, M 1946 1972
Yogi Berra (Player, Mgr.) / 8/P 1946-63, M 1964, 1984-85/1972
Roger Maris 9 1960-66 1984
Phil Rizzuto 10 1941-56 1985
Thurman Munson 15 1969-79 1979
Whitey Ford 16 1950-67 1974
Don Mattingly 23 1982-95 1997
Elston Howard 32 1955-67 1984
Casey Stengel (Manager) 37 1949-60 1970
Reggie Jackson 44 1977-81 1993
By the standards set in that list, Bernie, Jeter, and Mariano are definite candidates for retiring their numbers. Jeter and Mariano are HoF caliber players, but Bernie (like Mattingly) may not be, but can be honored here rather than in Cooperstown.
Bernie gets a 131
on the Hall of Fame Monitor. 130 or over is considered a “lock”
I agree with the spirit
I’d “unretire” Guidry, Jackson, Martin, Maris, and Rizzuto (should have retired his mic instead).
I don’t know why people talk about it as though number retirement is the only honor. Ruppert (owner), Ed Barrow (GM), Joe McCarthy (manager), Mel Allen (broadcast), Bob Sheppard (PA), Allie Reynolds (pitcher) and Red Ruffing (pitcher) all have plaques even though their numbers are not retired.
On a separate note, Bernie is clearly head and shoulders above Tino as a Yankee. Just look at ‘96-’01: Williams, 144 OPS+, .321/.407/.546 from one of the premier defensive positions in the game vs Martinez, OPS+ 114, .278/.348/.488 from a great defensive 1B. Then tack on the additional decade that Bernie was a Yank. I’m indifferent about plaque or no plaque for Tino, but no one else should ever be 51. Bernie just has to announce his retirement.
I’m too close to the O’Neill question to be objective but I’d give him a plaque, and led Jesus Montero wear 21.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Not Really
Bernie was a Yankee his whole career that’s why he deserves it more than O’Neil and Tino.
No to #51.
The Mattingly point holds no weight, He was the face of not only the team over his tenure but, for a time, the face of Major League Baseball, his number should be retired without a doubt.
The numbers comparison to Bernie is not valid either, as we all know Mattingly was injury-plagued though much of his career forcing retirement at 34. During their primes there is no way anyone could say Bernie was a better hitter than “Donnie Baseball.”
You can’t be retirement-happy. Reggie, Roger, and Billy shouldn’t be there. Retiring 51 opens a can of worms with O’Niell and Tino as well. If you retire numbers at this rate the Yanks will be in triple digits before you know it!
Bernie was a very good player, not a great Yankee. #51 should not be retired.
by theconquistadore on Nov 30, 2009 11:53 PM EST reply actions
No way Bernie was a better hitter? What?
Mattingly’s best 6 year stretch (84-89): .327 BA, .902 OPS, 147 OPS+, 1978 TB, 160 HR, 8 SB, 581 R, 684 RBI
After that he was barely above average for the rest of his career.
Bernie’s best 6 year stretch (97-02): .326 BA, .949 OPS, 146 OPS+ (lower due to the Steroid Era?), 1769 TB, 147 HR, 71 SB, 636 R, 629 RBI.
Looks like the same player to me. And Bernie had two other 129 or better OPS+ seasons.
Mattingly had a little more power and slightly better contact skills, Bernie walked more, was faster and played a tougher position for a long time.
So yes, if you’re going to retire Mattingly you have to retire Bernie, who was a big piece of a much bigger Yankees success for a long time. Maybe not a Hall of Famer, but definitely a Yankee legend. Frankly, you also have to retire Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte & Posada.
by PortlandYankee on Dec 1, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
Don vs Bernie
I am glad that Bernie’s stats are getting some play. He was overshadowed by some of the players around him, like Jeter and Posada, and his contribution was greater than he is often given credit for. However, having seen both players, I would still have to go with Mattingly as the better hitter.
For example, Joe Dimaggio had 155 RBI in 1948 and A-Rod had 156 in 2007. The high for the Yankees in the 50+ years in between is Mattingly with 145 in 1985, his MVP year.
Similarly, Dimaggio hit .357 in 1941. Mantle hit .352 in 1956 and .365 in 1957. Mattingly’s .352 in 1986 was the highest since Mantle. The only Yankee to have a higher average since then is Paul O’Neill who hit .359 in the strike-shortened 1994 season.
My point is that Mattingly’s best was better than Bernie’s best. If his back had not given out, he would have had a shot at the Hall of Fame. If I really need a hit, I’ll take Mattingly.
Mickey C
Maybe I'm a stickler
but I feel like for anyone to really deserve to get their number retired or get into the HOF, it has to be a no-brainer.
Because a valid argument can be made against Bernie, I think he doesn’t make the cut. The only people who should get retired are guys like Jeter and Mariano where there is just no doubt.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love Fig Newtons.
Normally I'd agree that Retired Numbers should be reserved for the truly legendary Yankees
but Bernie was my favorite Yankee growing up. So, on personal bias, I’m gonna say yes.
by I'mGivingYouARaise on Dec 1, 2009 1:04 AM EST reply actions
Yes
Team retired numbers are always less stingy and strict in admittance than the HOF. I say let Bernie have his day.
Maybe instead of a number, it could be a picture of a guitar. That would be genius.
Sorry but Bernie doesn't receive this distinction
You just can’t compare Mattingly’s and Bernie’s stats when Bernie had clearly much better players surrounding him in the lineup throughout his career.
In most team independent stats (like AVG or OPS)
Bernie and Mattingly are basically the same player at the peak of their respective careers. And Bernie played longer and was more effective outside his prime. So yes, you can compare them.
Not to mention that Bernie played an anchoring role in a dynasty and being one of the most productive post-season players of his era.
by PortlandYankee on Dec 1, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
But, when comparing Mattingly to Bernie...
Remember Donnie had a bad back that shortened his career and limited his out put at the end.
Mattingly got that bad back carrying the Yankees through the dark days of the 80’s. Bernie had some great years, but never had to carry a team. Stats don’t tell the whole story, not even team independent stats.
'I’ve learned to become a flat-liner. There’s a lot out there that’ll make your heart jump if you allow it."
-Coach Tomlin
by NYSteelersFan4 on Dec 1, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
So...
Are the Yankees going to run out of numbers?? I know it’s silly to think about but when you have this many good teams, it might be a possibility in the next 20 years…
“Now batting, number 102, Derek Jeter Jr…” HAH!
Yes to 51
When you look at the Yankees dynasty of the ’50s and ’60s they have several retired numbers: Mantle, Berra, Ford, Maris, Howard, Stengle, Martin and RIzzuto. Based on this, I believe it is fair to say that we should retire more numbers from the dynasty of the ’90s than just Jeter, Mo and Torre. Bernie was an exceptional player and an exceptional Yankee—top 5 in almost all offensive categories. Those who argue that if you retire 51 you have to retire 21 and 24 are mistaken. Paulie and Tino were not as prolific offensively as Bernie was and did not play their entire career in pinstripes. From the dynasty of the ’90s I believe the Yankees should retire:
2—The Captain
42—Goes without saying
6—His impact cannot be ignored
51—Greatest Yankee CF since Mantle
Maybe and Probably should be retired:
46—5 rings, all time postseason wins leader
20—best Yankees catcher since Munson
Absurd.
Pettite and Posada? No f’ing way. Never in a million years. No, no, no, no, and no.
The urge to honor players is just a desperate attempt to make them seem better than they were. There’s no shame in remembering a guy without saying that his number can NEVER BE WORN AGAIN. That’s an honor to be reserved for the truly ELITE players.
Retire Jeter and Mariano, and when some time has passed, have a “Dynasty Day” at Yankee Stadium to honor the 90’s teams and retire Torre’s #6 for all of them.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 1, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
I mean
I agree with Birdman. And if you look at the Yankees history what he’s saying is absolutely consistent with that
Are we not giving Bernie enough credit for his post-season success?
Bernie is in the Top-3 in nearly every “Playoff Career” cumulative offensive category, and I find it unlikely that another team will go on a run like the 95-07 Yankees and replace him.
If Reggie got his number retired based on what he did in two offseasons, do we really think that one of the most prolific offensive players in history (all of his production for one team) doesn’t deserve the same treatment?
And yes, I’d also retire Posada and probably Pettitte. These five were the anchors of that long playoff run. Tino was great, but wasn’t nearly as productive in the regular season or postseason. O’Neill I think there’s a stronger case for.
Okay, let's just cover all of this in one post
Why is there the need to retire 5 numbers (plus Torre) from the 90’s dynasty? That’s 20% of the roster.
It’s ridiculous. The great thing about those teams is that EVERYBODY contributed.
Retiring a number is an honor that should be reserved for the truly legendary figures in a franchise. The Yankees have retired too many numbers already, that doesn’t mean they have to further cheapen the honor further.
Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera are THE faces of the Yankees from 1996 to the present. They were critical parts of the dynasty, and remain crucial to the success of the Yankees in addition to their place in baseball’s larger picture.
Both are surefire first ballot HOFers.
Bernie, Pettitte and Posada were all important members of those teams, but it’s not an insult to tell a guy he’s not going to get his number retired. For one thing, Posada didn’t play in 1996, and was a part-time player in 1998 and 1999.
Don’t misunderstand, all three played major roles, but saying that nobody should ever wear their numbers again is ridiculous. Don’t compare them to Reggie or Mattingly, compare them to Ruth and Gehrig. You can make a case for Jeter and Mariano in Yankee lore.
Reserve the honor for players like that.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 1, 2009 12:29 PM EST reply actions
A thought
Might number retirement be directly linked to the need for a sell-out crowd at some point in the future?
Gehrig retired 1939
Ruth 1948
DiMaggio 1952
Mantle 1969
McCarthy and Stengel in 1976
Yogi and Dickey in 1972
Ford in 1974
Munson in 1980
Now hold on tight:
1984-1989: Howard, Maris, Rizzuto, Martin, Gomez (plaque only), Reynolds (plaque only),
1993-1998: Jackson, Mattingly, Allen (plaque),
1999-2003: Sheppard (plaque), Guidry, Ruffing (plaque), Robinson
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Very good point
I think plaques should be the way to go more than retiring numbers.
I’m telling you, they can hold a “Dynasty Day” at Yankee Stadium in 10 years or so, bring all the 90’s guys back, retire Jeter/Mo/Torre and honor Bernie and the rest of them at the same time.
Sometimes I think people just want to make more of something than is really there. Those teams were great, but retiring the numbers of 20% of the roster is just insane.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 1, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed. Plaques, especially in the new Stadium, were they could be hung around, rather than confined to Monument Park.
Or, you could do “Great Moments” murals up and down the boring cement ramps. Show Paulie’s running catch in Atlanta, Cone and Wells’ perfect games, Tino’s homer off Kim, Posada scoring the go ahead run in the Subway Series clincher… etc., etc., etc.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
this is what I was thinking...
can’t we just give him a plaque instead of retiring the number?
"It ain't over till its over"---
I could totally see somebody else wearing Posada's number.
Bernie and Paulie? Not so much.
And I’m mixed on Pettite and Mussina.
Yankees all day.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby
"If you're not doing it right, you're doing it wrong. And there's no in between." ~Mark "Lunch" McKenzie
OH God.
Mussina? He was here for 8 years, never won a World Series, and was part of a team that suffered the biggest choke job in baseball history.
Mentioning his name invalidates your entire post.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 1, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Mattingly never won a World Series either
and his numbers retired. I’m not saying that Mussina is Mattingly, but I’m saying that it’s not as outrageous as you think to give him a plaque/retire his number, particularly if he gets into the Hall of Fame.
He may never have won a World Series, but the Yankees wouldn’t have gotten to the two that he got to without him. He pitched two of the best, clutch postseason games I have ever seen, and they each resulted is World Series appearances. It’s not his fault he never won a World Series.
He was the best free agent signing Cashman ever had, and one of the best free agent signings of all time. The guy is a border line Hall of Famer. Do I think he deserves a retired number? Absolutely not. He wasn’t that good. Do I think he deserves a plaque? Possibly. I’m a little mixed on that. But he was a great Yankees pitcher. One of the best the Yankees have had this decade. And it’s not completely outrageous to think that he could have a Yankee monument.
Whoa Whoa Mussina??
Now wait just a second there. I can see some one wearing Jorge, Paul or Andy’s number (Andy least of the three). Seriously isn’t someone wearing Mike’s number already? He was a very good pitcher, but wasn’t a Yankee for long enough and wasn’t great enough as a Yankee to have his number retired. Is he a Hall of Famer probably. He doesn’t get his number retired by the Yankees though. Bernie on the other hand played from the end of the Mattingly era through the Dynasty’s championship years and into the World Series drought. He is top ten in Yankees history in walks, hits, RBI, HR, extra base hits, and doubles. He was the Center Fielder for over a decade at a high level. Bernie deserves this honor.
It absolutely would be outrageous
You’re too young to remember what Don Mattingly meant to an entire generation of Yankee fans. In your profile you may say that Mattingly was your favorite player when you were young, but if you were 4 years old in 1991, you have no idea what it was like to be a kid during the 80s, because if you did you wouldn’t put Mussina and Mattingly in the same sentence.
Retiring Mattingly’s number may seem to be arbitrary based on his stats, and if they hadn’t done it it wouldn’t be a crime, but to everybody around my age (30) Mattingly WAS the Yankees when we were kids. That’s why his number is retired.
If they ever retire Mussina’s number, give him a plaque or honor him in any way other than inviting him to Old Timer’s Day, I’ll throw every article of Yankee clothing I have down the sewer.
That’s exactly how outrageous it would be to honor him like that.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 1, 2009 6:58 PM EST reply actions
I see what you are saying
and I agree that Mussina is not Mattingly. I said that. I also said that I didn’t think that Mussina should be honored by retiring his number. He doesn’t deserve that. All I was saying that it is understandable why some people, particularly younger fans (like me), would think that it is possible that Mussina would have a shot at getting honored in some way. You think it would be absolutely outrageous. I don’t. Maybe it’s just me because I wasn’t old enough when Mattingly was the one and only face of the Yankees.
Again, I don’t think Mussina deserves to be honored like that. He wasn’t here long enough and never was, like Mattingly, the face of the Yankees. He was just one of the guys. But if you look at the numbers Moose put up while he was here, and compare it to some of the other retired numbers and plaques, then it isn’t completely outrageous to consider it a possibility.
I agree with you though that he shouldn’t be honored like that.
Fair enough.
I’m just a crotchety old man.
by New York Sports Jerk on Dec 1, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
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