Roy Halladay a Yankee? Make this happen, Brian
by Ed Valentine on Nov 19, 2009 7:30 AM EST
in New York Yankees News
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PrintTrade prospects, and maybe Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes to Toronto for Roy Halladay? Hang on to the youngsters, like Jesus Montero and Austin Jackson, and watch the Red Sox get the best pitcher available who is not already in a New York Yankee uniform?
That is the question confronting Yankee General Manager Brian Cashman this winter. Here is Jon Heyman of SI.com discussing the possibility.
Here is the most obvious reason the Yankees (or Red Sox) may now finally have a legit shot to trade for arguably baseball's best pitcher: New Toronto GM Alex Anthopoulos is making it clear he is genuinely willing to consider a deal with either the Yankees or Red Sox, a sharp contrast to Anthopoulos' predecessor, J.P. Ricciardi, who had GMs convinced he'd never make a Halladay trade with either the Yankees or Red Sox.
And here's yet another potential reason the Yankees (or Red Sox) might have an edge this time around: While Halladay's latest desires are not yet known (and agent Greg Landry did not return calls), with a year to go before free agency a player in Halladay's position can leverage his no-trade clause to engineer a trade to a team amenable to an extension. The Yankees have not heard that this will be the case. But if that happens here, the field could be limited to the teams who can pay a franchise pitcher. This is often the case when talking about big stars, and it was two years ago when Johan Santana was being shopped by the Twins -- the field was quickly winnowed to the two New York teams plus Boston, the three teams that could most easily work Santana into their budgets.
I have only one thing to say about this. MAKE THIS HAPPEN, CASH! If there is a realistic possibility you can put Halladay in pinstripes YOU HAVE TO DO THIS!!
If it costs you Montero, so be it. The Yankees are flush with catching prospects, and Montero might end up being just a DH, anyway.
If it costs you A-Jax, so be it. He might be a good big-league player some day. He might also be Ricky Ledee or Ruben Rivera. You don't pass on Roy Halladay to keep a guy who MIGHT become a good big-league outfielder.
If it costs you Joba Chamberlain, so be it. We still don't know what Joba is, but I think we know he is unlikely to become a Halladay-caliber starter. Besides, you would still have Phil Hughes, and I will bet you a buck (yeah, I'm a big gambler) that Hughes ends up having a better -- and longer -- career than Chamberlain.
If it costs you Hughes instead of Chamberlain, well, you still have Joba. And Ian Kennedy. And Dellin Betances. And you can always throw gazillions of dollars at Aroldis Chapman.
Want a list of reasons that are probably better, and most definitely funnier, than anything I can offer why the Yankees should do this? Diehard Yankee fan Jane Heller offers such a list over at Confessions of a She Fan. I'm not exactly jumping for joy like Jane at the thought of Halladay in pinstripes, but I do love the idea.
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I’m not sure Joba and Phil are still in the trade conversation. Joba has 2.05 years of service time and Phil has 2.13 years. Unless the Jays think they’re going to turn it around very quickly, those guys are going to start getting expensive by 2011 and will be free agents after the 2013 season.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
They might not be
And that would be a good thing. I’m just saying that I could live with losing Joba to get Halladay if it came to that.
I'll wait 2011...
For Roy, Lee and Mauer. These 3 will want to be a yankee and hope for a big paycheck so they’ll opt to be a free agent 2011. Bring back Andy and sign another for a year.
I've been saying this for a while...
I don’t care what the Red Sox do. Let them get Halladay. They need hitting more than anything. They’d give up Buchholz more than likely anyway…so let em do it.
I’d rather hang on to Montero. He may be a DH…but don’t we have Jorge Posada? Montero seems like he could be that sort of defensive catcher, and I’m OK with that with this guys hitting potential.
I’d rather keep Hughes and Montero over basically everyone else.
If they still see Joba as a headlining prospect..so be it.
Overall….WHY!!!!??
Why do we NEED Halladay? I’ve said I don’t give a piss what the Red Sox do, and the Yankees shouldn’t either. Halladay doesn’t automatically make them better than the Yankees…nope.
We have an ace. His name is CC. If this was last year…trade every single minor league player to the Jays..fine. We don’t need an ace.
Montero is the next Posada it seems at the bottom of his potential. WHY would you give that up when having a catcher of his caliber has been such an advantage for so many years?
…Plus, Halladay’s a FA next year, as we’ve said ad nauseum.
I’d rather keep Joba, Hughes, Montero, AJAX…aka 2/5 of the rotation (of maybe even SU man…) future starting C, future starting CF….AND GET HALLADAY ANYWAY when he’s a FA.
Makes more sense to wait and the chances of signing him as a FA are better than the Yankees making a deal that wouldn’t cost them the farm.
"It ain't over till its over"---
....
None of the aformentioned people have proven they can consistently WIN in the majors. Not Joba, Not Kennedy, not Ajax, not Montero. NONE. The only one who has shown consistent poise and promise is Hughes. I agree 100% with Ed.
BTW, anyone who thinks Montero is going to be the next Joe Maurer, think again, he’s not a very good catcher.
so what?
They MIGHT win.
Why is it so hard to see that the Yanks don’t NEED Halladay?
No one said Montero is Mauer either. Also, those who think he’s not a good catcher…are wrong. The kid is 19 GOD DAMN years old. He can get better at defense, he’s got plenty of time to do so, seems like a hard worker and will not be rushed.
Besides…I say he’s Posada behind the plate. Is a YOUNG POSADA A LIABILITY to the Yankees? No, he’s an asset.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Here we go again. The same nonsense that preceded the Santana trade. if we had traded for Santana there would not have been a Melky, a Hughes, a Cano, a Swisher or a Santana. There would surely not have been a CC either.
In short there would have been no championship and we wouldn’t have much of a future either. Let Boston trade their future for a 34 year old pitcher. Halladay, Ortiz, Lowell, Drew and Varitak can grow old together while Buchholtz, Anderson and others make Toronto a force for years.
Cashman has proven that he knows what he is doing. The Yankess must get younger not older. Damon, Matsui, Pettite, Jeter and ARod are all in their mid thirties or older. Our future stars are players such as Montero, Romine, Cano, Hughes and Joba. We have to keep them; we have to get younger and we need to a better balance of cheap and expensive players.
Cashman knows this and has been moving the Yankees in this direction for four years now.. It is the only way that the Yankees can remain competitive and in some years be the champs.
It was a ridiculous argument over Santana two years ago. Fortunately Cashman beat back the loud Steinbrenner. Instead of an injured Santana ( there were signs in his ratios of decline) we kept our kids, we rid our team of the expensive expiring contracts Giambi, Abreu, Mussina and got for the same dollars CC, AJ, Tex and Swisher. Cash got rid of the expensive bullpen pieces and relied on the young inexpensive arms that he has been stockpiling. His is the right approach.
The only free agent signing in 2009 consistent with Cash’s approach would be Holiday for five years if we keep neither Damon or Matsui. The offense would again get younger and Matt would cost less than the departed duo.
I expect the tabloids to push the yanks to trade for Roy. It sells papers; it makes the Yankees the villain which also sells papers. There is nothing more boring than the Yankees being smart. Being smart means waiting on Felix not throwing our future into chaos with a old expensive rotting team.
I expect much more from this site.
Cashman
has been right in his decisions on Santana, and CC. I have supported the idea of not trading away the youngsters. I think this has to be seriously considered, though. The Yanks are not getting younger, realistically.
The window is open for a couple more years, maybe, with Mo, Jeter, A-Rod, Jorge, etc. Halladay makes them the prohibitive favorite in the AL for at least the next two seasons. That’s why I think the Yankees have to at least strongly consider it.
If Cashman decides against it, then I will trust his decision. He knows the young talent better than any of us. Either way, I know this team will be good.
As for expecting more from the site, one of the primary purposes of a blog like this one is to create debate. Whether you agree or disagree with my take, I think this post hit its mark in that regard.
by Ed Valentine on Nov 19, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
All due respect
but the Yankees didn’t “rid” themselves of Mussina. He decided to retire after a 20-win season and would have been great to keep had he chosen not to retire no matter how much he would have wanted for a one-year contract.
No one is saying Montero will be the next Mauer...
He most likely won’t hit for as high an average or play as good defense, but he should hit for more power, so his wOBA might be about the same. Mauer is a freak of a catcher, MVP quality bat and GG quality defense, that’s like saying you want to trade a basketball player because he’s not as good as Michael Jordan.
Yes I agree
Tha Yankees have an ace, we need another good #3 or #4 starter.
You keep asking why.
I think you’d agree that in Pinstripes, Halladay has a good shot at two or three 20-win seasons, and that he is one of the most dominant pitchers in MLB.
So, are you averse to the idea of having two aces? Do you think it’s overkill to have a dominant rotation when they just won the post-season with three starters? Do you feel that, since the Yankees just won the WS, they don’t need to do anything to upgrade?
The idea that the Jays are going to let him turn into a FA is crazy. They’re just going to let his contract lapse and get a compensatory draft pick when he signs elsewhere? Hardly. They’re going to move him to a team that he’ll waive his no-trade clause for, i.e., a team willing to give him a fat extension. Can we all just agree to shelve this argument, because the likelihood of it happening is about 100% less than the likelihood that Montero turns into a journeyman catcher.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Nov 19, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
OK.
but in no way am I going to call two aces overkill..I’d love to have it.
But I say why b/c….WHY? We have an ace. We have an incredible offense too. So its not like we’d have to improve our pitching staff to elite of the elite levels.
I agree that the Yanks could use a starter, cuz who know not only if Pettite signs..but WHICH Pettite we get.
I’m saying…why do we need to go after Halladay…when if we need a pitcher THAT BADLEY!!! JOHN LACKEY IS SITTING RIGHT THERE FOR THE TAKING.
There. Argument done. FK Halladay. If they really want a pitcher, get Lackey. He can sure as FK go and out duel anyone in the league, including Halladay.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
Completey agree with you FB
Can’t trade the biggest farm players for an aging star. I also could care less about what Boston does. Let them trade their prospects for Halladay and get maybe 2-3 years out of him and then burns out, maybe less. As for Montero’s doubters, I understand your concerns as nothing is ever a guaruntee with these young guys, but he’s arguably the top hitting prospect in all of baseball right now, drawing comparisons to guys like Manny and Miggy, back when they were in the minors. Joe Mauer, no, a potentially monstrous HR hitter? Yes.
BTSC Obituaries
OldManSteeler, ominously died two days before Superbowl 123 where the Ravens are set to attempt their 7th superbowl win, facing the Detroit Lions on Sunday. He was 86. His last words are believed to be "MALOR CAN SUCK IT!!!". Like friends and family, we can only guess what this could mean.
by Tim Mullhaupt (HSS) on Nov 19, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
c'mon man...
I don’t wanna make it seem that I am knocking Halladay.
In no way am I saying that he wouldn’t be worth the gigantic haul of prospects….he probably would be. He’s that good. He’s old only in age (Yogi-ism alert), he’s a young 33. He’s the type of pitcher that goes strong till he’s 40.
Make no mistake of that, I’d think we could get 3 more elite years out of Doc, 3 more #2 starter caliber, and then who knows what else of a solid, Andy Pettite type #3 guy, maybe better than all a that.
I’m just saying…the Yanks simply don’t have the need for an ace. So why would you go and make this trade when you don’t need it?
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
Nah,
I’m not saying Halladay wouldn’t be worth a big price either, but I don’t think at this point you sacrifice all that youth for an older pitcher, who could go for another 5 years, but I can see him fizzling out earlier than that. It’s a good bet that out of all the prospects that the Jays would want, a couple will probably be busts, but I definitely think more than one could pan out to be decent players to say the least.
BTSC Obituaries
OldManSteeler, ominously died two days before Superbowl 123 where the Ravens are set to attempt their 7th superbowl win, facing the Detroit Lions on Sunday. He was 86. His last words are believed to be "MALOR CAN SUCK IT!!!". Like friends and family, we can only guess what this could mean.
by Tim Mullhaupt (HSS) on Nov 19, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
nobody will do the trade unless they get an extension....
The jays will want way too much for a rental…..
Disagree 100% with this
As we saw two years ago, the Yankees aren’t going to pay twice – in prospects and in money – for a player, no matter how good he is.
I’d rather keep Joba, Hughes, Montero, AJAX…aka 2/5 of the rotation (of maybe even SU man…) future starting C, future starting CF….AND GET HALLADAY ANYWAY when he’s a FA.
FreeBradshaw is dead-on here. We’re not saying that Joba, Hughes, AJax, and Montero are all can’t-miss prospects. Far from it. What we’re saying is that even with Halladay, you still need to fill out a roster with 24 other guys. Somebody has to catch, somebody has to play the outfield, somebody has to fill the 5th rotation slot or 8th inning setup position. You’re going to have to pay somebody to do those things.
When you trade three or four low-salary players for one $20 million player, the actual financial cost is $20 million per year plus whatever you have to pay the guys who replace your prospects.
As jscape said in his post a few days ago, a mediocre prospect is valuable. Joba didn’t set the world on fire last year, but he gave the Yankees 157 innings of 90 ERA+ baseball while earning a $430,000 salary, while guys like Jeff Suppan, Kyle Lohse, and Carlos Silva put up the similar numbers with salaries that were 25 times higher.
So I say wait on Halladay. If he’s available for trade at a price that’s comparable to what the Mets gave up for Johan Santana, then Cashman should pull the trigger. But if the Jays are asking for the moon, let them ask somebody else.
Yes
I don’t understand the extreme desire for Halladay, nobody pitching today (other than CC) is THAT good. The Yankees would have to give up too much from a team that really gels together, and they’d be getting a guy that might or might not fit in.
+1
If they weren’t willing to part with the big prospects for a younger Santana- why would they do it for Halladay? Sure Halladay in Pinstripes would be awesome, but some here are acting like this is a desperate need. Um… last time I checked, the Yanks were the champs- without Halladay.
by NumberSeven on Nov 19, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
I would rather have Joba and Hughes
than a 33 year old right-hander whose best days are behind him. NO. This is STUPID. He’d be good for one or two seasons, Joba and Hughes could both end up as good as Halladay and for many years to come. I am not a huge Halladay fan, he is too old already to give up anyone of importance. This would be the same as pulling in Randy Johnson, it would be a terrible error.
well...
I ain’st saying THAT about Halladay.
We have Andy Pettite, who Halladay seems to be a RH better version of when Andy was 33. ANdy’s been pretty good till he’s 40 hasn’t he?
Tailed off a little bit, but if Halladay tails off as much as him…he’s still a top 15 pitcher.
I’d get Halladay in a millisecond if it didn’t cost prospects.
Your dead wrong in your assesment of Halladay. He is not the sort of pitcher (all command, hits spots, relies on movement….) that tails off all that much. We are not talking about a power pitcher here.
He’s also a young 33. While some of his non-200 inning seasons are due to injury…they still are not 200 inning seasons.
Make no mistake, I’d love to get Halladay in pinstripes and I can be reasonably confident that he’d be a damn good pitcher right up till he’s 39 or 40, like Andy Pettite is.
…just not at the expense of the future of the Yanks.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
FreeBradshaw, you're leaving some things out
1. Pettite is a lefty and lefties mature later, last longer.
2. Pettite is an admitted steroids abuser.
The only way Halladay lasts as long as Pettite is steroids and a whole lot of luck. VERY unlikely, so unlikely I’d be willing to put money on it. He has max 2-3 years of Halladay-ness left before he starts to look very mortal.
That's not quite right.
Pettite admitted to using HGH (which is not a steroid) twice while rehabbing from an injury. He said he didn’t use it further because he didn’t feel it was having any effect in speeding his recovery. One can make one’s own judgment as to how truthful this confession is, but the fact remains that’s what he said. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding HGH in that he readily confessed and willingly cooperated with the Congressional inquiry on PED use in baseball. Steroids was nowhere in the discussion, not am I aware of his implication in STEROIDS use at any time.
Mike Mussina and Greg Maddux say HI !!
You can pitch till your 40 if your a RH.
Halladay is much more like Maddux than Mussina, who was more of a power pitcher when he was younger.
Halladay is 6"6 too, so he doesn’t really need as much effort to remain at the 90mph.
And don’t give me that bullcrap about steroids. Just cuz Andy used HGH and admitted it…doesn’t mean that at 40 not only he still does but also that it has a lasting effect.
If anything, it hurt his longevity.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 20, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Ugh..
Did anyone pay attention to the acquisitions of the late 90’s dynasties? They added a pitcher each year even though they won the WS the following year. 97 it was David Wells, 98 it was Orlando Hernandez, 99 it was Roger Clemens, etc… Yes, the 2009 Yankees won the WS but there is no guarantee that the 2010 squad performs at the level of the 2009 team in addition to the rest of the league. In fact, the odds are against it.
GET HIM!!!
I would hold on to Montero if possibleB But get Doc. Pitching wins! Enough said.
lol!!
wrong.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
Just a thought...
When has Halladay ever pitched in an important game?? Why is everyone so sure he’ll come to NY or Boston and be just as lights out? Sure, he’s done what he’s done in the AL East- but never with he season on the line, never in the white hot spotlight of the NY/Boston media, and NEVER in the postseason.
I’m not saying he isn’t a fantastic pitcher- maybe even one of the best of his time- but how do we know for sure what he’ll do in a pressure packed situation?
oh I know that..
…and I know Halladay seems as sure a thing as there is out there— but I haven’t heard anybody even mention the fact that Halladay’s never pitched a true big game in his MLB career. Clearly not his fault- but all the same.
by NumberSeven on Nov 19, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t buy that argument even for a minute. Not for half a minute.
You don’t struggle for perfection for 20-25 years and then not be mentally tough enough to handle a hypothetical big game.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
i'm not saying he definitely will...
…I’m merely playing devil’s advocate here.
by NumberSeven on Nov 19, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
that's crap.
See: Sabathia, CC.
He’s a big time pitcher. I highly doubt he’d wilt under the playoff pressure.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
When I saw Doc's picture on the frontpage, I almost stopped breathing
then I saw the title, and I was quickly deflated. I thought the Yankees got him.
Roy Halladay is my favorite non-Yankee, so I might be a little biased here. Over the last week, I’ve gone back and forth with how I feel about acquiring him. My first response was a big yes, it’s Roy Halladay, quite possibly the most dominating pitcher over the last 5 years. Then I started reading about Montero and Jackson and how good they could be and I made peace with not seeing the Doc in pinstripes if it costs the Yankees their top prospects.
But lately, I’ve come back to wanting to acquire him and here’s my argument. While it’s important to have a good farm system, the Yankees don’t have to be totally reliant to it. They’re not the Marlins. The Yankees have the luxury of being in the mix when it comes to acquiring every big name free agent. Not a lot of teams can put the biggest free agents on their wish list and then actually have a chance at acquiring them. Sure, Montero and Jackson could be good or even great players, but it’s not as if the Yankees will be horrible in the future if they lost them. They are still in the mix with every great player in every position that they’d need.
I’m not discounting the value of good prospects, but in this case where the decision seems to lie on proven veteran vs young players with potential, the Yankees have a lot more options to play with than other teams would be in this situation.
So yeah, if Cashman can get Doc, I’m all for it.
I agree and I can see Doc getting a chance to write his name large
thru the season and thru the Series…as a Yankees fan (since a long time ago) he is someone who will make me watch a game that won’t really matter in the ‘race’ (and I’m talking about games in the past when they weren’t playing the Yankees). Just to watch him pitch. To be able to see him pitching for the Yankees and see him in upcoming critical games all the way thru the WS against the BEST from the Nat’l League,…sounds great.
Also he would help make AJ a ‘Pitcher’ instead of a thrower. (Love AJ but he calls Doc his mentor)
PLUS I want to add to his chances for the HOF…
This is worth considering as a beneficial side effect.
If AJ really did gain so much from being in the company of Doc day in, day out, then his presence on the Yankee pitching staff could have the side effect of improving AJ’s game as well. That would result in us having a true horse (CC), an aging ace (Doc), and a more consistent, more effective AJ, who could quite possibly become the best #3 pitcher in baseball and the equal to many teams’ ace. Just the presence of Doc might also take some pressure off AJ, knowing there are two studs ahead of him, which in turn might result in him pitching the games with a better mental state, not feeling like he has to be perfect and in turn just going out, letting his stuff (which is exceptional) do the work. Toss in Pettite with a similar performance to this season’s and you’ve got a fantastic four-man staff, probably the best top four in all of baseball.
Now call me crazy, but I like what we saw of Gaudin last season… he’s a winner and seems genuinely to want to help the team each and every time out. He’s also fairly young, and spending a season in the company of CC, Doc, Pettite, and Mo could easily result in him elevating his game. IMHO that completes a heck of a fine group of starting pitchers!
Now consider CMW, who ends up icing on the cake if he returns to form… but we wouldn’t have to count on that happening, it just becomes a happy bonus. If he doesn’t start he could perhaps do well in long relief, or possibly as a matchup guy… his sinker could result in plenty of DP grounders in critical situations. Maybe this role is a good way to ease him back into the rigors of starting? Likewise Hughes and Joba could continue their relief roles and possibly make spot starts here and there… one more season of, er, seasoning could be good for both of them, and they’re young enough to slot into the rotation naturally in years to come, when Pettite is gone and Doc is fading. If Gaudin has become a solid starter in the meantime, that would leave us with a FUTURE rotation of CC, AJ, Hughes, Joba, and Gaudin, with the latter three pitchers still easily on the upside of their careers.
Starting pitching wins championships, folks! I like this scenario. Granted, a lot of things have to go right to give us all the above, not least of which is trading for Doc without giving up the whole farm… but if Cashman can make it happen, it’s well worth at least considering.
The Offer..
I would offer AJAX, Chamberlain and 1 or 2 lower level prospects for Halladay and call it a day… I would not give up Hughes and probably not Montero either.
I can't see
The Need for him right now. We have an ace, a solid number 2, and a great number 3. Don’t get me wrong adding another ace especially a Doc would be amazing, but at the expense of prospects whom are highly regarded? I wouldn’t do it…Worse case scenario with Joba, and the Philthy one we throw them in the bullpen, and have our set up man, and closer for the next 12 years. All the prospects required are under 25!! They can be busts but honestly if they’re somewhat decent, they pay themselves off in spades. So unless u can get him for maybe a 1st rounder, and 4 lower level prospects, I say pass. Right now we don’t need another ace.
So....
If Brian would be able to pull it off and not have Joba/Hughes going the other way, does that mean we don’t sign Andy? It’d give the rotation enough stability to let Andy go.
I think Andy comes back
At bare minimum it would be a just in case, you can never have too many quality starters.
by DarthRichter on Nov 19, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
It would help to burnish his HOF creds as well, he has the story for it
(I think the same for Mussina,)..but I think a few more chips in the history books should erase argument.
It's my understanding
that 99% of Andy coming back is Andy deciding not to retire (influenced by his family helping him make the decision). I would understand if he felt like retiring at the top of his game, 5 WS rings, tons of playoff appearances, All-time Playoff Wins record, etc.
That being said, do we have a contingency plan for a left-hander in the rotation if Andy decides to retire? I know we have CC, but we did really well this year because of our two left-handers defeating the left handed offense of quite a few clubs.
It takes a moment like Andy pondering his future to make us realize and appreciate the few quality left-handed pitchers in the game, as, for some reason, they are notoriously difficult to develop long-term and turn into the kind of starters that Andy and CC are and have been.
Here's the
rebuttal to the whole argument.
Get Lackey. If we’re worried about a pitcher…why not pony up the dough to Lackey? He’s not quite Halladay of course, but he’s a bit younger and sure as hell would be a nice 1-2 punch with Halladay.
Plus, we get to keep all the youngins.
Screw Halladay, let the Red Sox barf up their future for him. Sign Lackey, ""crisis"" averted.
"It ain't over till its over"---
**With CC
1-2 Punch with CC.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
But....
Let’s not forget about Vernon wells. If the Yankees can leverage taking him on for not including montero in the deal… What would you guys think?
Bradshaw I know you love montero so what about this…..
Doc plus wells for Ajax and joba/Hughes and 2 more pitching prospects…. Think Toronto will bite on that?
by Vancouverguy on Nov 19, 2009 11:42 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I will say NO
to every single Halladay deal until Lackey signs elsewhere.
Its absolutely pointless to pony up ANYONE and take a waste of a roster spot like Vernon Wells back anyway.
Not to mention..Lackey cost money, that’s it. If Halladay’s in the top 3 pitchers in the game, Lackey’s in the top 12 or so.
We’re not losing much in terms of talent with Halladay vs. Lackey, but as a whole and what it would take to pry Halladay away and also to re-sign him? You’d have to be nuts to consider Halladay as the #1 option over pursuing Lackey.
….are we seriously even considering trading for Halladay. I sure as shit would focus right on Lackey if we need another pitcher.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Wells is a good player
But he’s going to make $12M in 2010 and $20M+ for 4 years after that. And he has a full no-trade clause.
That’s why I don’t think Joba or Hughes make sense as part of a trade proposal.
The Blue Jays are dead in the water until Wells’ career is over.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
He is good.
He’s a good defender and when healthy, can actually be a dangerous hitter.
He’s not worth his contract tho, which still has a number of years on it.
He’s just a really big burden. Like a Giambi type burnden..except he hasn’t even produced that well.
We just got over Giambi…why go with another one?
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
....
Wells is not a good player… he’s not a good fielder and doesn’t do much with the stick. He was a freakin negative value player last year.
that's last year...
he was hurt.
He not in any way is worth his contract, but should he so happen to end up on the Yankees…..he’s better than who we got in CF when he’s healthy.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
I should have said he was a negative value player in 2009… when he wasn’t hurt. His WARs for the last three years, beginning with ‘07 are 0.8, 1.2, -.1. That is not a good ball player. Gardner has been a more valuable player the last three years, and he wasn’t even in the majors in ’07… nor did he have anywhere near the ABs that Wells had.
or coming off major wrist surgery...
kinda need that to swing the bat.
In no way am I saying I want Wells anywhere near the Yanks.
Its just that a CF who can be a plus defender…and be much better than Gardner and Melky at the plate…is a good ballplayer.
He ain’t worth his contract..not even close.
But if Wells makes say…$500,000…I’d take him over the two CF we got now.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
I guess
that wrist injury must be why the last 3 years his UZR has been at -1.1, -14.3, -18.2…
UZR for IF
is useful. You can get a general feel.
For OF…fairly misleading and useless.
I really can’t stand when people got and say ""his UZR"" is this..so he sucks or whatever.
Fairly arbitrary #.
If you pay attention to Vernon Wells…you know he’s a good defensive CF.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
it’s only arbitrary if you look at it year by year, but when you look at his collective career ratings… he’s not a very good CF.
exactly...
you go by that rating…you think that.
You actually watch Wells….you’d be a fool to believe that.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
seriously?
I think Vernon Wells’ negative trade value almost completely equalizes Halladay’s positive value. We could probably get both of them for Ramiro Pena. (/exaggeration)
agreed
i’m not gonna say the Yankees are above upgrading, because they are. they could use another good pitcher because there is a reason this was the first time a team won the WS with a 3-man rotation since the Twins in 1991.
however, as good as Halladay is, he will cost a lot to acquire. i’d love the thought of him in pinstripes, but i’m not okay with selling the farm to do so.
there’s no guarantees that our prospects will turn into stars, but at the same time there is no guarantees on Halladay either. sure Halladay is the type of pitcher that TENDS to last longer (relying on command/movement as opposed to power) but that’s not a guarantee that he actually does last longer so then his age becomes an issue.
personally, i think he could pitch effectively until he’s 39-40 (ala Pettite, Andy) because even Halladay tailing off is better than a lot of pitchers. i’m not okay with selling the farm for Halladay when they’re are pitchers available that would cost less.
"When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are past, I want they bury me upside down so all my critics can kiss my a**"- Bob Knight
by JumpinJackFlash on Nov 19, 2009 12:25 PM EST reply actions
*agreed with Bradshaw*
"When my time on Earth is gone, and my activities here are past, I want they bury me upside down so all my critics can kiss my a**"- Bob Knight
by JumpinJackFlash on Nov 19, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Vernon Wells
I think he is going to have a great year in 2010, regardless of where he is. He had the wrist surgery (which is a huge detriment to any hitter) so I expect him to be around .280/20/90
You don't double pay for a free agent
It was a worse idea with Johann, but still a bad idea with Halladay.
You don’t give up two building blocks (and Hughes, Montero and A-Jax are all legitimate building blocks) just for the right to pay someone 5 years of CC money (which is what Halladay will want).
It would be awesome to see him in pinstripes, but he’s not a young man and not worth the risk that we get 2 years and then a steep decline.
This whole debate
is great. Opinion is split, and I knew it would be. Who knows, a week from now I might change my own mind. It all points to this — it is not easy to be a general manager. It’s an incredibly difficult decision to make, either way.
I disagree
The Yankees just won the World Series using CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett, and Andy Pettitte. In all likelihood, all of those guys will be back next season. Also, Joba, without the rules, should have a much better year if he just goes out and pitches. Chien-Ming Wang is coming back half way through the year, and if he’s healthy and his sinker is working, thats another cheap ace added to the rotation. John Lackey is available on the market in case they really want another big name pitcher, and they have Aceves and Kennedy waiting in the minors or in the bullpen to start in case of injuries.
The point is, the Yankees have a ton of quality pitching right now. A TON of quality pitching. The rotation, in my mind, is in very good shape right now. They have one of the top rotations in baseball, especially if Chien-Ming Wang comes back strong. They do NOT NEED Roy Halladay. Is he a great pitcher? Absolutely. Would he be great to have on the team? Absolutely. But is he worth what the Yankees may be giving up? No way.
Halladay would definitely make the Yankees better. But think about what you’re giving up. You’re giving up 2, maybe 3 of your 5 starters for the future. You’re giving up your future center fielder and your future catcher, both of which are two of the top 50 prospects in baseball and have a bright future ahead of them. I realize that they may turn out to be busts. But they also may turn out to be stars. These are players that have great talent. You have to give them a chance. If this was last season and the Yankees had 0-5 slots filled in their rotation, then I would agree with you. But this isn’t last season. It’s right now. The Yankees are defending World Champions, and they have 5-8 starting pitching options for 5 slots, and definitely do NOT need another big time starter. It would just mean another long-term contract. More money added to the payroll. And also, Halladay isn’t exactly young. He’s aging. He’s going to demand a contract that takes him into his late 30s. He’ll start declining by then, and we’ll still be playing him big money.
There is no need for Roy Halladay. Let him go to the Sux for all I care. They’d have to give up a lot too and pay a big money contract. To me, there just isn’t a lot of sense in giving up the future, possibly future All-Stars, for a player that isn’t needed.
I understand your point
however, I would pose these thoughts:
We don’t know if Andy is coming back, which is our biggest rotation question mark. Chien-Ming Wang is our 2nd biggest question mark as it is uncertain how well he will pitch when he returns (plus, he’ll be a mid-season return); we don’t even know if the Yankees are going to sign him yet either.
Quality pitching? Maybe marginally true, but the only 2 quality starters we had (consistent and dependable throughout the year) were Andy and CC. I’d give Gaudin a nod because we won most of the games he started and pitched at least 5 innings in. Other than that, Joba, AJ, and Mitre were inconsistent. Not so much that they ruined our season, but enough that our offense won those games long after the starters departed the field (and didn’t get decisions).
No argument from me about our prospects, but let’s not all pretend that our rotation was perfect. Our playoff run, especially the WS, would probably have been a game or two shorter with at least one more quality starter. Girardi went with a three man rotation not because he really wanted to but because he was playing to win every game and didn’t see Joba and Gaudin as giving us the best chance to win if they started.
I count A.J. as one of the "reliable ones"
I know he’s a little inconsistent, but he still always ends with very good numbers, and, for the most part he does a good job during the season.
Everyone keeps saying that Andy’s coming back and I’m basing it on that. I sure hope he does. If not? Sign Lackey.
And anything Wang may give us next year is a bonus. They can’t expect anything. Just take what you get. Like A-Rod this year. “No expectations”.
I'll keep saying this
…WHY!
WHY do we have to get the best possibly pitcher available?
WHY?
We have an ace! 2 is better than one, of course. But WHY?
You trade your top end propects..WHEN YOU NEED SOMETHING!!
The Yankees have an ace. Getting Halladay…doesn’t guarantee them of anything other than risking their future (cuz they are NOT getting away with giving up one prospect, its gonna be a haul of prospects).
There are other options out there too! Not the single, bestest option, but very good options at that.
WHY do we have to go for the #1, single best option out there?????
This should NOT be plan A. Halladay should be plan D or something like that.
There’s plenty of other pitchers out there. Making a trade like this is simply unnecessary.
"It ain't over till its over"---
So after all this
I’m gathering you oppose the trade idea?
;)
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Nov 19, 2009 8:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
well...
not 100% opposed.
I’d like to explore what else is there. I just don’t see the gigantic need to go out there and get him
I’d love to have Halladay in the rotation…possibly at any cost..he’s that good.
But its just WHY?
We don’t need an ace. We need a #3/4 pitcher/ How come we can’t go out and do that.
I just don’t see the point in putting all your cards in and going after the best possible option when you don’t need it.
Just seems like a stupid, unnecessary risk.
"It ain't over till its over"---
by FreeBradshaw on Nov 19, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
I was just pulling your chain
You seem to be very clear on this. Somebody ought to make a digest of all the pros/cons and send it to the Yankees. Would make their organizational meetings unnecessary.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Nov 20, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Why we ARE NOT trading Montero...
here’s the stats of certain quality players when he was young:
Player A
Age: 20
A league: 109 games, .324/.389/.565 OPS: .953
High-A: 21 games, .284/.341/.481 OPS: .822
Player B:
Age: 19
A league: 110 games, .302/.393/.392 OPS: .785
Player C:
Age: 19
High-A: 124 games, .274/.333/.421 OPS: .754
Montero:
Age: 19
High-A: 48 games, .356/.406/.583 OPS: .989
AA league: 44 games, .317/.370/.539 OPS: .909
So, who are the mystery players? Player A is Albert Pujols. Player B is Joe Mauer. Player C is Miguel Cabrera. Montero is in a higher level at a year younger than Pujols and outperforming him. He’s two levels higher than Mauer was at 19 and blowing the numbers he had out of the water, and a level higher than Cabrera was at 19 and also blowing him out of the water.
So, come on. Seriously? You want to trade this guy? There’s a chance he could be the next A-Rod, and we would get him for several years for very cheap until he’s arbitration or free agent eligible. Listen, there’s a reason his first name is Jesus.
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