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Cinci Salary Dump?

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The Reds have let teams know they would just about give away Francisco Cordero (two years, $25 million), Bronson Arroyo ($11 million in 2010, $11 million 2011 option with a $2 million buyout) or Willy Taveras ($4 million in 2010).

I know all the negatives about Arroyo- his K/BB ratio is only about 2:1 over the last three season, and he's a fly ball pitcher.

But he's kept his ERA+ between 93-112 in the last 3 seasons and his FIP has been between 4.50 and 4.78 while pitching 200+ innings for 5 straight seasons.  I'm not worried about the launching pad worry, because he's coming out of Great American Ballpark, though I would of course worry about the NL to AL dropoff.

If Cashman really could bring Arroyo aboard in a deal reminiscent of the trade for Nick Swisher (the most valuable Wilson Betemit has been in his career), knowing Arroyo would be around for one season with a team option for another, I would bring him on as a 4th starter (resigning Pettitte or signing Lackey remains priority #1).

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If they can ge Arroyo

for a toilet seat cover…I’d be down.

To be honest I wouldn’t even give up what they did for Swisher for Arroyo, unless they sweeten the deal with a Kanoeke (??) Texiera type prospect.

"It ain't over till its over"---

by FreeBradshaw on Nov 16, 2009 7:59 AM EST reply actions  

honestly...

I would rather give our 4 and 5 spots to Joba and Hughes and give them both a chance to mature as starters. If we need something by the trade deadline, we’ll make a move then.

by Wraithpk on Nov 16, 2009 8:58 AM EST reply actions  

Exactly

The Reds will still be desperate to dump Arroyo in June or July. The Yankees have younger, cheaper, and most importantly, BETTER options at this point.

I would like to see them enter 2010 with a rotation of Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte, Joba, and Hughes, with Chad Gaudin as a long man/spot starter, and Ian Kennedy next in line for regular work if somebody gets hurt. I’d also like to see the Yankees resign Chien Ming Wang, who could be back by midseason.

That’s eight starting pitchers. If four of them don’t pan out, then take on a salary dump. But only then.

by 3460kuri on Nov 16, 2009 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

But...

I don’t see the Yankees brass placing THAT much expectation and emphasis on Joba/Hughes in the 4-5 spot without quality back-up. Don’t forget, we were hoping for the exact same thing in 2008, and we had Kennedy in the mix too, and how that quickly blew up in our faces.

I like Joba/Hughes as much as the next guy, and expect them to have very good careers, and they should EVENTUALLY be able to perform competently in the 4-5 spots and above…. but.. I just can’t see them being Plan A, without an adequate Plan B just in case things go awry.

If Joba can duplicate his post-ASB form for those few starts, and extend it, we’ll be getting an AJ type starter, without the control issues. He may not have the off-speed stuff that AJ has, but he’s going to pitch 6-7innings, and get 6-7 K/s per outing. That is going to make for a very decent 4th starter. We’re in awesome shape if he could put those numbers up in the No.4 spot. (But… I STILL believe we should have him as the top set-up guy and groom him for Mo’s replacement. A guy throwing in the 96s out of the pen is just going to overpower too many guys to not consider him closer material… but since the Yankees think he’s a starter, we’ll go with that.)

Now, Hughes really didn’t do so well last year in the starter role. He was lights out as a reliever for the most part, pre-playoffs. It is impossible to look at his relief success and automatically assume he’s “turned over a new leaf” and is all of a sudden going to be a strong starter. With addition to the additional innings he has to pitch, he also has to go through the lineup multiple times…. and he can’t go out and attack the batters with his best stuff. (Like Joba’s fastball dropping from 95-96 down to 91-92). I honestly expect a very mediocre transitional season for Hughes. (and even though he was a starter at AAA, that’s the AAA).

We really should go after a low-risk high-reward guy, and have Hughes taking the off start he will inevitably get. I know this causes problems because he’s not pitching on a set schedule, but I’d take Ben Sheets or Rich Harden’s half season (Because of inevitable injury risk) , coupled with Wang for half a season and then seeing Hughes slowly transition into a starter.

We’re defending champions dammit, we shouldn’t have to rush Hughes and potentially derailing his performance.

As for Cinci, I guess we won’t have any need for Brandon Phillips, so that leaves one of their starters, Arroyo and Harang. Neither have enough upside to justify their contracts, and are bound to get shelled in the tough AL East. (Haven’t we seen enough of Arroyo to know that?).
Sheets/Harden is much easier to justify, fully knowing the injury risk. A reachable, incentive-laden deal is the way to go.

by Vancouverguy on Nov 16, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

I think the signing of Pettite will happen, and then Joba and Hughes are the 4th and 5th starters.

You’ll see them sign a guy like Sheets or whoever else is on the project/potential list of veteran starters for this season.

Eventually, Hughes and Joba will be in the rotation.

I kinda don’t think it starts off that way tho.

You can also throw Gaudin, Ace or even Mitre out there for a few starts. If needed,

"It ain't over till its over"---

by FreeBradshaw on Nov 16, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Number 4/5 starters never really have that much expectation placed on them.

Joba/Hughes would be Plan A, Gaudin/Aceves Plan B, Ian Kennedy Plan C, with Chien Ming Wang coming off of the DL mid-season as Plan D. From there, they can consider Bronson Arroyo or whomever.

The point is to have depth, to have options. and properly evaluating and ranking them. Hughes may be no sure thing in the rotation, but he has tremendous upside. At some point you have to let these guys pitch. Joba had his ups and downs last year, but do you really think he’s going to do worse in 2010? If nothing else, he’s a young guy with upside (and issues) who’s at the very least capable of posting a 4.50ish ERA. That’s the definition of a fourth starter.

by 3460kuri on Nov 16, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

not to mention...

that Joba had outings where he looked dominant. We know what he can do, it’s just a matter of him finding that consistently, which will come with age and experience.

by Wraithpk on Nov 16, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Arroyo is somewhat intriguing, but he’s not someone I’d get real excited about. Frankly, I’m kind of hoping we give Gaudin a chance. After some mechanical adjustments, he looked pretty sharp—that is unless Hughes and Joba lay claim to those spots.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Nov 16, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Do...not...want....

His K/BB% has been on steady decline during the last four years (2.88, 2.48, 2.40, 1.95). He’s also a notorious above-average second-half of the season pitcher if you take a look at his splits. The Reds need him to stay, at least through next June, to anchor their mediocre staff. They’ll probably get better returns for trading Arroyo come July.

Arroyo has been pretty pedestrian throughout his career and his 2010 $11M salary w/ $2M 2011 buyout option isn’t exactly cheap. As you’ve mentioned, he’s a flyball pitcher. YS won’t be kind to him.

by Scooby Snacks on Nov 16, 2009 10:31 PM EST reply actions  

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