Posada vs. Molina/Cervelli, Round 34,534, and the myth of catcher's ERA
Repeat ad nasuem: (insert name of Yankees SP) has pitched better to (insert name of Yankees backup catcher) than he has to Jorge Posada this year.
Because of this, Jose Molina will be starting against Minnesota tonight, because A.J. Burnett's numbers with Jorge Posada behind the dish (6.1 IP per start, 5.33 Runs Allowed/9 innings) are far worse than they are with the trio of backup catchers the Yankees have employed this year (6.4 IP per start, 3.42 RA/9).
We all know the basic question that's fueling this debate: is Burnett pitching better because Molina/Cervelli/Cash is catching, or is it just a happy coincidence, kind of like how I haven't contracted the Swine Flu or West Nile Virus ever since I moved into my new house four months ago?
I looked at Burnett's season, start by start and, quickly, it became pretty clear that not all of Burnett's troubles can be attributed to who's catching.
Look at Burnett's stats vs. Boston this year:
And then look at him vs. the rest of Major League Baseball:
In a word, ouch. Whether it's due to bad luck, poor pitching, coincidence, or whatever, Burnett has fared horribly against Boston this year, and has pitched very well against everyone else. But guess what? Jorge Posada caught all four of Burnett's starts against Boston, from his 5 inning, 9 run stinker on August 22nd to his 7 2/3 inning, 0 run gem on August 7th.
Now, we don't know why Burnett pitched poorly against Boston in three of his four starts. Maybe it's because Posada only called one good game. Maybe it's because Burnett was exceptionally wild and didn't have command of his stuff. Maybe it's because Boston is a really, really good hitting team. Either way, when a pitcher gives up 5 walks, 5 hits, and 5 runs in 2 2/3 innings (see 6/9 vs. Boston) it probably doesn't matter who's catching, yet if you exclude those four starts, Burnett's RA/9 with Jorge behind the dish drops by over a full run.
This whole argument, about who should catch, who calls a better game, and Catcher's ERA, can be easily skewed by small sample sizes. You need proof? There are 37 catchers who caught at least 100 innings in the American League this year. Twelve of them managed to catch 50% of their team's innings. You know what? Of those twelve, eleven had a Catcher's ERA that was within +/- 10% of their team's overall ERA. Of the remaining 25, only 11 had a Catcher's ERA that was within +/- 10% of the team's actual ERA.
The point? Most teams have a mix of pitchers ranging from good, to mediocre, to bad (see 2009 Yankees, C.C. Sabathia, Mariano Rivera, Joba Chamberlain Chien-Ming Wang, Sergio Mitre). The more innings a catcher squats behind the plate, the more likely he is to get the full mix of the good, the bad, and the ugly. But when he's on DL for an extended period of time, only plays day games following night games, or spends part of the season in the minors, he's far less likely to catch the full range of pitchers who might see game action in a given year.
Jose Molina caught 357 innings this year, the equivalent of about 40 games. In truth, if 40 games meant anything in the long run, we'd still be talking about how the Blue Jays had a better record than seven of the eight playoff teams (they did through 40 games this year) or how Raul Ibanez slugged .737 (through 40 games, he did). The truth is that 40 games don't mean much of anything in the long term, not when you're trying to make sound judgments about players and teams.
And so here's the only comparison that I care about. Since 2002, when he became a semi-regular catcher, Jose Molina has caught 3,725 innings, about 32% of his teams' total, with a Catcher's ERA that is 4% lower than his team's total ERA during that stretch. Posada has caught more than twice as many innings - 7,725 - during that stretch, 67% of his team's total, with a Catcher's ERA that is 3% higher than the team's overall ERA.
So Posada's CERA is 7% higher than Molina's relative to their team's average, and that's before you consider that a 32% sample carries a lot less weight than a 67% one. The point is, I'm not convinced at all that Catcher's ERA is a meaningful statistic, or that any one particular catcher has a substantially more positive influence on his team's RA/9 innings than any other catcher. You begin to see differences in CERA only when a team employs multiple catchers that see significant playing time, ensure that none catch a majority of the innings. This is exactly the type of small sample situation that should make you put LESS faith in the numbers, not more.
And we haven't even considered offense, where Posada holds a huge edge in OPS+ (130 to 49) versus Molina this year. We all know that offense is FAR more quantifiable and measurable than game calling or pitch framing.
Jorge Posada should start tonight's game. Jose Molina barely belongs on a Major League roster.
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29 comments
Comments
"Jose Molina barely belongs on a Major League roster."
Wrong, he’s one of the top three defensive catchers in the game, not to mention he calls a great game.
by nygmp42 on Oct 9, 2009 4:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For people who claim the issue is simple...
…you’ve spent an awful lot of time trying to make your case.
If there’s any truth to the rumor that AJ Burnett prefers throwing the Jose Molina, that should take precedent over Posada’s pathetic postseason bat.
Again, this is NOT a game played by Baseball Reference or Fangraphs pages, it is a game played by human beings who are affected by emotions. A pitcher’s confidence is a primary concern, and given the depth of the Yankees lineup even without Posada and his .235 career playoff average, I would suggest they’ll be just fine offensively.
But by all means keep belaboring the point. It’s truly fascinating.
by New York Sports Jerk on Oct 9, 2009 4:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No
The way you say it, it sounds like Burnett is more emotionally fragile and finicky than my 91 year old grandmother.
Ignoring that 350 postseason plate appearances tell less of a story than 6,000 regular season ones for Posada, you’ve left Molina’s pathetic bat out of the discussion.
Burnett gets paid $17.5 million dollars a year to throw a baseball to a catcher. If the line between huge success and tremendous failure rests solely on how “comfortable” he is with one catcher over another, he really doesn’t belong on a major league roster..
by 3460kuri on Oct 9, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, what does Posada get paid for?
Is it to yell at pitchers who shake him off? Is it to let pitches get past him then jog after them?
Is it to get his panties all twisted because his manager (the man paid to make the decisions) decided to go with someone else?
Molina’s bat is pathetic. That doesn’t mean he can’t get a hit tonight, and that doesn’t mean with any certainty that he’s the wrong choice for the game.
If the series was being played rotisserie style, it would be.
by New York Sports Jerk on Oct 9, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burnett...
said that he feels more comfortable with Molina because he works at a faster pace and keeps him in rhythm. Pitching is a mental game, and if Burnett is more comfortable with Molina, let him pitch to Molina. It’s important in this game to keep the Twins’ bats cold, so defense is important. In Andy’s game, we might need more offense, plus Andy and Posada know each other well, so Posada should pitch to him.
by Wraithpk on Oct 9, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't Molina's numbers skewed because he doesn't have
the same number of at bats or innings caught this year as Posada?
Also, it doesn’t matter what the fans think about this, it’s what Girardi and his coaches think, as apparently AJ has said he has not gone to Girardi and asked for this, it was just done.
The manager and coaches know a lot more than we do about these things, and the real world implications and mentality and consequences, so I’m comfortable with whatever Girardi chooses to do.
by phonty on Oct 9, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Molina's numbers
Nevermind, that’s what you were saying.
by phonty on Oct 9, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
You put less faith in Molina’s CERA because he’s caught far fewer innings (and a much smaller percentage of team total innings) than Posada.
If managers know “so much more than we do” why do idiots like Dusty Baker and Trey Hillman continue to be employed by Major League teams?
by 3460kuri on Oct 9, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand
your first point and can concur.
I don’t know why some managers are still employed but there’s a reason that they are. Usually, they’ve played the game or coached the game on some level before getting a major league managing position (or it seems that most have). And most ball clubs give some creedence to a lifetime spent in the sport, especially if they had any part in a winning organization because they’ve seen and learned things that they can pass on.
That’s the human element, I guess.
by phonty on Oct 9, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, there is.
A point that many ignore. If you were putting together a fantasy lineup tonight, Posada would be in it.
Sadly for some, that’s not how the game is played in reality.
by New York Sports Jerk on Oct 9, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more thought
Is anyone else giving any creedence to the fact that Girardi was a catcher for the Yankees when they won at least two of their WS in the 90s? He knows how to catch and he knows what pitchers need.
by phonty on Oct 9, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, maybe not
Again, did the Yankees win because Girardi caught, or did they coincidentally win at the same time Girardi was catching?
My point about being careful not to give the manager too much credit: in 2002, Dusty Baker managed the Giants to within a couple outs of a World Series victory. Eleven of the sixteen players who came to the plate 100 times that year had an OBP lower than .340.
Every year before and since, Dusty gives no credence whatsoever to the importance of getting on base. And look at how his teams have fared.
Not saying Girardi is on par with that, just saying that it is possible to assume a manager knows what he’s doing even though he clearly does not.
by 3460kuri on Oct 9, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can understand
what you’re saying and agree. I was just saying that Girardi’s experience as a catcher is influencing his decisions as a manager.
by phonty on Oct 9, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i strongly agree
that small samples can skew results wildly, but i just want to add a few comments:
- catchers, just like other positions, can vary wildly in terms of defense.
- the SABR community still has a long way to get to quantify catcher’s D (and even farther to quantify ‘game-calling’, if it exists). though Bill James does state it’s the most important defensive position on the field.
- i think we can all agree Molina is a better defensive C than Posada.
- Molina will get 3 PA at most tonight.
- iirc, Burnett has implied or stated that he prefers Molina. whether that’s false confidence or not, if it gives Burnett confidence, that’s gotta be worth something.
by Travis G on Oct 9, 2009 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just out of curiosity
What is AJ’s ERA against all teams not named the Boston Red Sox, regardless of who was catching?
by phonty on Oct 9, 2009 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good Lord
I am soooooooo sick of this topic. Can we please just get to the game and stop talking about this? It’s getting ridiculous.
by Ed Valentine on Oct 9, 2009 4:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I call this the "Joba starter vs. reliever" feeling
Facial LaFleur, total facial.
by Lord Duggan on Oct 9, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only difference is...
the suck part of this argument in Joba’s case, starting, can get better and that’s why I say he’s a starter.
The suck part of this argument, Jose Molina, just plain blows. He’s as good as his younger brother behind the plate…and is a single A hitter at the plate
This is like keeping Rey Ordonez over a Derek Jeter as SS.
Is that what we are doing today? Starting Fucking Rey Ordonez? In a playoff game?
Again, this is AJ Burnett’s fault, not Jorge’s. He better pitch good.
What the f$%k is the internet?
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 9, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is what happens
with a day off between every game.
by Travis G on Oct 10, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i really truly dont mean to sound like the diplomatic one here
But in honest sentiment….3460kuri was right…I don’t really give a shit who is catcher….a.j. gets payed millions of dollars to throw a baseball to the person the manager puts out there to catch. Regardless of who that is he needs to throw hard and precise. That’s too much money for his ass to be picky with who’s catching him. Throw the ball at the location the glove is at. Period. That’s your job. Last I checked posada nor molina nor cervilli has anything to do with the wild ones he tosses 4 ft away from the strike zone.
by NYYWinsRings26 on Oct 9, 2009 4:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
True...
…but maybe you want someone capable of actually blocking one of them, which Posada cannot.
by New York Sports Jerk on Oct 9, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Posada I've seen plenty of times to count
block a ball off the plate. As with any catcher, its gonna happen where a ball gets by him. No one ever said Jorge was that good at it, but he’s not incapable of it like you say.
Its actually the ones right too him that he seems to miss.
What the f$%k is the internet?
by FreeBradshaw on Oct 9, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yankees catching
Nothing wrong with Jorge, period. Get rid of Molina and let Jorge tutor Cervelli as the next great Yankee catcher.
by ndirish on Oct 9, 2009 5:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is a tired subject already...
While I agree that Molina’s bat sucks, he has won a WS with the Angels and clearly knows how to call a game. The Yanks have enough power in the lineup to bail him out if he does his job with AJ. Posada is clearly getting old we all saw him jogging to get the ball instead of running to get the ball in regular season it would be ok but in a playoff game. I am 99% sure that Boston has faced him enough times to steal some signals from him over the years and maybe even become predictable to them in some games.
by YANK77 on Oct 9, 2009 5:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Numbers vs Instincts
Thinking Outside the Batters’ Box was posted on April 28. And it remains true now.
by BacktimeTV on Oct 9, 2009 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Guess what
Who cares what you think?
by HappyLuckyGoldenDragonNumber1! on Oct 9, 2009 11:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"90% of the game is half mental"
no truer words were ever spoken
by NYer in a strange land on Oct 10, 2009 11:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd take good pitching over offense any time.
If Burnette decides to only pitch well when Molina is catching, then let it be. Jorje Posada can bitch and moan about it all he wants, but in the long run, we need pitching more than we need offense.
It's days like these I thank the good lord for making me a Yankees fan
by TheMelkman on Oct 10, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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