Not again
[via i261.photobucket.com]
The irrepressible Michael Kay brought up something that Jorge Posada said while being interviewed for YES' Centerstage: "I don't see [Joba] as a starter." To top that off, both John Flaherty and Al Leiter agreed with Posada. To paraphrase Flaherty: (1) 'As a catcher, I want a great pitcher who can pitch everyday. (2) His ERA shows he's better as a reliever. (3) He also seems too fired up to start. (4) The tendinitis proves he can't handle starting.'
Let's refute these one by one.
1) If pitching everyday was so great, why not make Chien-Ming Wang a reliever? Or better yet, sign CC Sabathia to be the set-up guy! He'd only pitch 100 innings max, but he could pitch in every other game.
This is wrong on several levels, as I'm sure you can tell by the absurdity of making a front line starter a reliever. That's what Joba was when he started (65.1 ip, 60 h, 25 bb, 74 k, 2.76 ERA). He'll pitch in fewer games, but far more innings. The top relievers nowadays pitch 80-90 innings, while the top starters pitch 250 innings. So a starter will have an impact on thrice as many at-bats - in other words, a starter is three times more important than a reliever. The convincing moment should have been the 1-0, seven inning shutout Joba pitched in Boston.
2) The ERA comment is just dumb. Every single pitcher in MLB would fare better as a reliever than a starter. Does anyone think Mo Rivera would have a career ERA of 2.30 if he started his whole career, and had to face batters three times a game? There's a reason he's a reliever: he doesn't have the repertoire to start, while Joba has four quality pitches.
Best of all (as we saw with Mo), you can always go from starting to relieving, but not the other way around.
3) Ah yes, the 'emotions won't allow him to give less than 110% on every pitch' argument. Considering he was a starter his entire college career (over 200 innings), and for 95% of his minor league career (over 100 innings), why are his emotions a barrier to starting? First off, he did tone down his emotions. Did they watch the same games I watched? The fist pump/inning ratio went way down when he started. Second, emotions don't hurt Carlos Zambrano, Randy Johnson and Jake Peavy (some very emotional and very good pitchers that come to mind).
4) Has any pitcher not suffered tendinitis at some point? One three week DL stint should not be enough to permanently declare Joba a reliever. His shoulder got overheated during a 101 degree night in Texas. That's not so unusual.
Posada should never have said anything. Now we'll have to deal with this the entire offseason (again). When he did become a scout? I trust Brian Cashman, Damon Oppenheimer and Nardi Contreras a lot more than Jorge when it comes to determining a pitcher's future.
If over time his body cannot stand up to the stresses of starting, then a permanent move to the bullpen is understandable... but not until then. And that won't be determined for a couple years.
- Posada just tickes me off the more he talks. While Joba continues to say he'll do whatever the Yankees want him to do and anything to help the team win, Posada says "I don't want to play first base. I want to be a catcher," and "Pudge, he's my friend, but he's going to have to go somewhere else." Real friendly, and thanks for being flexible Jorge.
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Get a Joba...
Put Joba in the rotation and leave him there. A talent like his comes around once in a lifetime. A pitcher can just as easily get hurt relieving or starting.You can’t prevent it. As for Posada I think he’s going to be a real distraction next year. I would have let him walk after last season. At best he was a decent catcher in his prime who had a good bat. Now coming off shoulder surgery, he’s making demands? Try to move him in the off season or have a sulking, unhappy ball player for the next three years.
by celerino73 on
Sep 16, 2008 5:43 AM EDT
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Jorge can say all he wants
But he has to play where he’s told, or he can retire.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
by jscape2000 on
Sep 16, 2008 6:44 AM EDT
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Indeed
And it’s also pretty clear that Joba wants to start. Cashman and Girardi have said that Joba has a say so in this decision.
From Pete Abe last night:
* Chatted a bit informally after the game with Joba Chamberlain. He’s really sick and tired of the whole debate over his role. To Joba, it’s pretty simple. He has been a starter all his life until last July. You know why he’s a good reliever? Because he’s a good starter. He wants to start, period.
The Yankees might have to finagle this a bit next season. But if they put him in the bullpen, he’s not going to be happy.
by anaconda on
Sep 16, 2008 8:37 AM EDT
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Put him in the rotation ...
Posada is talking out of his neck. Virtually every pitcher I’ve known, know or will know is familiar with shoulder tendenitis. It goes with the territory, and it’s not terribly serious. Joba does far more good to the team at the front of the rotation than in the 8th inning.
If he can’t do it, okay then make the move. That’s what they did with Righetti. When he broke down he moved to the pen and was brilliant for a number of years.
Posada needs to shut-up and catch.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on
Sep 16, 2008 2:49 PM EDT
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i agree on both fronts...
and i have to say i’m not loving this new chatty jorge. what happened to the stoic, quiet leader? hopefully when he gets healthy and playing, he’ll have less time to wax poetic on how he thinks things should be run.
The Jayfiss Report ...one fan's rants
by NumberSeven on
Sep 16, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
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Forget catching......
I want pudge back at catcher. If Posada doesn’t want to move to 1st then trade him. He is an awful catcher. I always thought so. One year he threw out runners consistently and that was his contract year. We will never see another offensive year like that. He lets to many balls go by him allowing far to many runners to advance to scoring position. Goodbye Posada its time to retune this pile of junk.
by RollingThunder on
Sep 16, 2008 2:53 PM EDT
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i hope you're kidding
The Pudge in Pinstripes experiment has been a complete and utter failure. He’s not hitting, none the pitchers like pitching to him— he’s done.
If Pudge was so wonderful, why the hell was Chad Moeller starting last night. Give me a break.
The Posada of old- .280s, 20 HR 80 RBI guy is all they need back. No he’s not going to revert to the prime of his career- let alone the career year he had last year- but I don’t think he’s done either. Most of a year off might actually be good for his legs.
The Jayfiss Report ...one fan's rants
by NumberSeven on
Sep 16, 2008 4:49 PM EDT
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Chad Moeller
was probably catching just because he knows Aceves better than either Pudge or Molina, having caught him several times in Scranton.
by Travis G on
Sep 16, 2008 6:29 PM EDT
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Dude, really ... put the pipe down right now
Posada is an “awful” catcher? Ah, that would be Mike Piazza. Jorge is a good catcher. “Retune this pile of junk.” Are you kidding me? Posada is statistically better than Munson in virtually all categories, and is comparible to Howard and Berra on most fronts. Gimme a break.
As for Pudge, are you stoned, man? He blows. Definately a first ballot HofFer, but talk about retuning a pile of junk!
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on
Sep 16, 2008 5:25 PM EDT
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'awful' is too harsh
average is about right with a very good bat. i know some here hate Pudge, but the Yanks should offer him arbitration. 86 ABs dont define a player. he is a first ballot HOFer, via both offense and defense.
if he accepts, we’ll have extra depth at catcher, something necessary until Posada proves he can catch, and who knows when that will be. again, even when healthy he was an average catcher. if Pudge declines, we’ll get draft picks. win-win in my eyes.
by Travis G on
Sep 16, 2008 6:34 PM EDT
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Would it be crazy to assume that Jorge has a no trade clause?
I agree that Joba should be a starter but I thought the Yankees had to re-sign Posada last off season. So now they are stuck with him for the next 3 years.
by Pride O' Ireland on
Sep 16, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
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unfortunately
he does. it automatically kicked in after his 10th year with the Yanks.
Hank screwed up by taking negotiations out of Cashman’s hands. Cash was only willing to go 3 max for Jorge. he used the Mets as leverage and Hank caved, giving him a 4th guaranteed year. same thing with Arod. Cash seemed willing to let Arod go and start anew. Hank caved and gave him that monstrously stupid decade-long deal.
by Travis G on
Sep 16, 2008 6:28 PM EDT
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been reading comments
at other websites. the idea of Joba relieving is music to Sawx fans’ ears. that should tell you all you need to know.
by Travis G on
Sep 16, 2008 6:35 PM EDT
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Jorge has the right to speak his mind
but I do think our sidelined but high as a kite catcher who blew kisses to Nady and waved a bottle of drink to A-Rod in the dugout, took too many pain killers.
by Raven King on
Sep 17, 2008 1:21 AM EDT
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