Joba
Out of lack of a game to watch tonight and sheer boredom, I started looking at Joba's innings.
Last year, counting the minors and the playoffs, he pitched about 115 innings.
Help me out here if I'm wrong, but I think the general rule of thumb is not to increase that number by much more than 30 the following season, so by that logic Joba's innings cap this year is about 145 to 150 - let's say 150 for arguments sake.
After today's game, Joba now has 84.1 innings pitched. If 150 is the max, then he has 66 innings left to pitch.
I counted, and if Joba pitches every fifth game between now and the end of the season, his 11th start would be in game 162, a game which obviously could mean a ton or could mean nothing. 11 starts x 6 innings per start = 66 innings. I happen to think it's much more likely that he reaches the eighth inning in more starts than he'll get pulled in the fourth inning, so he could definitely hit 66 innings before game 162.
The Yankees must be 1000 percent aware of this as well, and I'm curious to see how they manage this down the stretch, when they very likely will not be able to afford to skip his turn in the rotation. And I realize this is a very nice problem to have, but the Yankees will have a gy-normous problem on their hands if they reach the playoffs.
At what point do they have to shut Joba down?
I think the Yankees panicked and moved Joba to the rotation too early this season, and as I've said many times, as good as it looks now, they still badly botched this plan in my opinion. They had limited options at the time they "began the process", but based on the above math there's a decent chance they screwed themselves here.
Let's go back to spring training, when this decision was made in the first place. I believe Girardi saw all the question marks in the bullpen and insisted Joba start the season there. But the Yankees would have been better off had he begun the season in the rotation and finished it in the bullpen. His innings would be so much easier to manage had they done it in this order.
People might bring up Wang's injury here, but that's not relevant because you have to go into the season assuming he would be healthy. And if Wang wasn't a spaz in Houston, plus Pettitte, and Moose pitching the way he is - though we might argue vehemently otherwise - could you really see Joba getting the ball before Game 4 of the ALDS? He might get a start ahead of Moose, but I doubt it. Thus, wouldn't it make sense to have him in the bullpen this playoff season, where with the days off and no Joba rules he could pitch in just about every game, instead of a game (game 4) that might not even exist? Wouldn't it be better to have him in the pen than have him capped out and not on the roster?
After seeing his work in the rotation the first part of the season (if they did it my way), there would be no argument for 2009 - he would have begun and finished the season as a starter, with an innings cap of about 180. All of the stupid arguments about this would not have happened past spring training of this year, because the decision to move Joba from the rotation back to the pen this summer would have been a simple mathematical one, just as it was last year.
I shouldn't be complaining about this today because this was a good day for the Yankees. But I enjoy watching this kid pitch, and if he gets shut down right when the biggest games are about to start, or if they risk injuring him by pushing his innings cap...well, I'd rather not think about it. Except I already am and I'm not too happy.
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We'll have to see what happens
but I think there’s a good chance Joba will get a breather in September depending how the pennant race shapes up and the roster expansion.
We went back and forth on the Joba issue so many times before so I won’t rehash everything again now. But, in my opinion, even way back in Spring Training – there was no question in my mind that this was the right move regardless of it’s consequences on the pen. I wanted Joba to be a starter ASAP.
But, as it turned out, this transition has worked out better than any of us could’ve imagined. At this point, Joba is also pitching much better than we could have anticipated. This kid is going to be a real badass for many years if he stays healthy.
BTW, I do think Joba would get the ball in the postseason – there’s no question in my mind. My guess is that Joba would be the Game #3 starter.
Moose has been great this season – no question. But he’s due for a regression and it might be enough to move him down the pecking order.
by anaconda on Jul 30, 2008 11:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He has started a couple other seasons
red hot and worn down through the stretch. I keep reminding myself that so that if it does happen I won’t be too disappointed. He has pitched better than anyone could have dreamed, except jscape, but we all know he is a starry eyed optimist.
Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.
by Edwantsacracker on Jul 31, 2008 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joba
If Joba cant throw 15 more innings than origionally planned, than he has bigger issues. I’m sure Yankee management will figure something out anyway.
Also the yankee bullpen is more than fine without Joba in it.The Yankee rotation needs Joba much mroe than the pen does. I mean for gods sake without Joba, Sidney Ponson and Darrel Rasner would be 3ed and 4th in the rotation, and god only knows what other scrub would be in the 5th slot.
"Hey Derek do you actually drive the Edge?","I don't drive that piece of crap!"
by Da Shiz on Jul 30, 2008 11:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Magic # 33
I did a little quick math, and I think out of the 55 games that are left, the Yankees have to win 33 of them in order to reach 92 wins. That would be playing at a .600 clip if they won 33 out of 55 gms.( They are playing at a .551 clip as of today) Does any1 else think that 92 wins are enough to get the Yanks into the playoffs? 92 seems a little low.
"Hey Derek do you actually drive the Edge?","I don't drive that piece of crap!"
by Da Shiz on Jul 31, 2008 12:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't seem low with TB playing so well
If it was just a 2-team race with the Red Sox and Yanks, I’d agree that 92 was a bit low. But this is going to be a 3-team race, so 92 sounds pretty close.
The Yanks got in with 94 wins last season.
by anaconda on Jul 31, 2008 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It will take more than 92, and Joba will be there to the end
If the Yankees need a win in September, Joba will be there. I’m really not so worried that if he surpasses the magic mark, the coach turns into a pumpkin and the dream ends.
When assessing innings pitched, it’s not good enough to just throw a 100 pitch count or 150 innings limit on a pitcher. While they are important, they shouldn’t be hard barriers never to be crossed. Instead, consider the situations during which those pitches or innings were thrown.
Stake a pitcher to a 5 or 6 run lead and he goes into cruise control. I’ve seen pitchers throw 120 pitches or more under these circumstances. Conversely, I’ve seen pitchers who were emotionally spent after throwing 80 high-stress pitches in a 0-0 game with men on base throughout.
In reviewing Joba’s work as a starter, I really haven’t seen too many high-stress situations. In fact, his last two starts Baltimore and Boston have been low stress affairs.
That said, extending Joba’s innings (if need be) is likely only to have a negative affect on opposition bats.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on Jul 31, 2008 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might not be worried
but you can bet the Yankees are.
If they are in a fight the rest of the way, and it looks like they will be, the Yanks will not be able to afford to “save him for later”.
How many innings is too many? 175? 200?
They have already messed with him by switching him from setup man to starter midseason, which can’t be the best way to do it physically. They are not going to push it with him.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on Jul 31, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are not going to push it with Joba
You can bet your ass that the team is taking his innings cap very seriously. His health is way too important to this team for them to push him way over his innings cap.
The team wouldn’t have gone through so much trouble with keeping him in the pen the first two months for them to abandon such a plan and overwork him.
It’s not going to happen. I can guarantee you that.
by anaconda on Jul 31, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will bet my ass...
...and a few other appendages: If the Yanks are in the playoffs, Joba will exceed his limits.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Jul 31, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not talking about the postseason
I’m talking about the regular season. They will give him a breather, especially when the rosters expand.
by anaconda on Jul 31, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won't
exceed his limitations in the regular season. Girardi has already shown that he’s not going to let him throw past 7, and usually he’s gone after six. He’ll get close to the limit, but when October rolls around Joba will be standing tall.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on Jul 31, 2008 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only reason
he has been pulled before the 8th inning is because of his pitch counts due to high k rates and abnormally high (for him) BB rates.
He has stopped walking people lately, and he will begin to pitch deeper into games. Unless they’re blowouts.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on Jul 31, 2008 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right ...
but they do have an innings cap on him. They aren’t going to blow the lid off that unless they reach the playoffs.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on Aug 1, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
The only way for them to reach the playoffs might be to have Joba pitch every five games, if not less given the off days.
They will not be able to afford to skip his turn or “give him a breather”.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on Aug 1, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong ...
The only way for the Yankees to reach the playoffs is to have Joba pitch EVERY day. :) Giving him a breather won’t be an option if Girardi continues to cost us games like he did last night by starting Pudge over Molina.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on Aug 1, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Starting Pudge over Molina?
Cashman got Pudge to be the everyday catcher. How did Girardi cost them that game last night by simply playing him?
by anaconda on Aug 1, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Catcher pitcher relationships are sacred
Pettitte and Molina go together like Abbott and Costello. Adding IROD to the mix without any prep wasn’t a good call. Sure, I’d have put his bat in the lineup, but I’d give him a day to settle before tapping him to catch everyday.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on Aug 4, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He needs to be the #1 starter in the postseason
Again, hoping that the Yanks truly know what’s good for the team (so far so good with I-Rod, Farnsworth, and Hawkins). If you need to win 3 out of 5 games, would you rather have Joba start 1 of the games or 2 of them?? If you need to win 4 out of 7 games, would you rather Joba start 1 of the games or 2 of them??
by 3460kuri on Jul 31, 2008 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You are preaching to the choir
But there’s no way in hell Girardi will let him start before Pettitte. And unless Moose goes in the tank, I see him starting game 2 (but if Moose does go into the tank we probably won’t have to worry about playoff rotations).
Joe G. has surprised me a few times, but I see him going with the “experienced veteran” over the rookie. Stupid, but he’ll do it unless Moose gives him a reason not to.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on Jul 31, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Red Herrings, Hogwash and just plain bullsh*t
“Out of lack of a game to watch tonight and sheer boredom, I started looking at Joba’s innings. “
Maybe you should be wearing glasses ;)
“But the Yankees would have been better off had he begun the season in the rotation and finished it in the bullpen. His innings would be so much easier to manage had they done it in this order. “
The “Numbers” tell a completely different story, and frankly, this assertion is hogwash:
Joba’s ACTUAL innings for 2008:
April – 11.1
May – 12.1
June – 25.0
July – 35.2
Joba’s LIKELY innings had he started in the rotation
(and I’m being real lenient in IPs with 4 2/3 per start)
Rotation to Bullpen
April 4 starts at 4.2 IP = 18.2 IP
May 5 starts at 4.2 IP = 23.1 IP
June 4 starts at 4.2 IP = 18.2 IP
July 3 starts at 4.2 IP = 14 IP
Total IP – 74.2
vs.
Actual Total IP – 84.1
Which is a difference of 10 innings. That’s negligible at best – and considering my “rotation” numbers never had him going past the 4.2 mark, I view my numbers as skewed LOW – which means, he would have had even fewer innings available to pitch in the remaining 2 months of the season.
In fact, by the end of May, Joba had pitched 1/2 the number of innings than he likely would have had he started in the rotation. Therefore, starting him in the bullpen and ramping him up to the rotation has been the correct route.
If any mistake is being made in his handling, it is letting him go beyond the 6th inning in June/July, but as he has only done that 3 times, and his average innings per appearance is around 6 now, I’d say they’re doing exactly the right thing.
“At what point do they have to shut Joba down?”
1. There’s nothing that says they ‘have to’ shut Joba down.
2. Realistically, skipping 1-2 starts in September in the middle of a pennant chase will not happen if Joba continues to pitch as well as he has.
3. They shut him down when the last game of the season is played. Whether that’s at the end of September or October, doesn’t really matter.
The bullpen continues to be a STRENGTH for the team—moreso with the departure of Farnsworth and Hawkins and the probable elevation of Melancon. So truthfully – Joba is right where he needs to be to help this team win down the stretch – in the rotation.
Given the current state of the rotation – CMW injury aside – what possible good would it do the Yanks to have Joba in the bullpen at this point when we already have to run Sidney “Pontoon” and Rasner out there? Do you think we’d even be IN this race?
“They have already messed with him by switching him from setup man to starter midseason, which can’t be the best way to do it physically.”
Boy you got a lot of ‘em going on today—here’s another red herring…
ERA by month tells a completely different story (again) – what it tells us is that Joba has adapted JUST FINE to the transition:
ERA
April: 1.59
May: 2.92
June: 1.80 (transition to SP)
July 2.52
And, there’s no point debating the ‘playoffs’ - we aren’t in them yet and until we are you put the very best team on the field everyday until you get there - THEN you worry about the rest.
by detroit yankee on Jul 31, 2008 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Um, no...
If Joba had been preparing to be a starter throughout all of spring training, he would not have been “babied” out of the gate other than his first start of the year, when everyone is on a lower pitch count.
So his innings would be much higher in the first few months of the season than your inane projections.
Secondly, as I said, I was basing all of this on the notion that their best starter, Wang, would remain healthy. If he was at the top of the rotation, followed by Pettitte and Moose, the effect of Joba leaving the rotation at about this point in the season would be far less devastating than if he left now, with Wang unavailable. I think they had too much faith in the back of the rotation (Hughes, Kennedy) and not enough faith in the bullpen – which is why they put Joba there to start off the season. Had Joba been starting from day one the Yankees would have not started the season as miserably as they did.
I’m not talking about ERA, I’m talking about the physical transition of one inning – empty the tank versus six innings, 100 pitches every five days. To do that in the middle of a season seems, to me anyway, to be more of a physical strain as opposed to having a whole spring to condition yourself. Plus, since he already went from starter to reliever midseason the year before, he was already used to that process.
Those of you who think the Yankees will run Joba out there until the last day of the season and (fingers crossed) through the playoffs are mistaken. This is an invaluable right arm and they will not take any chances. I don’t know what the absolute max number is, but I can’t picture it being too much higher than 150 IP.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on Jul 31, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
um, yeah
“So his innings would be much higher in the first few months of the season than your inane projections.”
Which essentially trash cans your argument that he should have started in April/May instead of being in the bullpen—even with my ‘low’ projections (and 4.2 is hardly inane), he would have had even fewer innings available for the remainder of the season – which would have lessened his value to the team even more.
“I’m not talking about ERA, I’m talking about the physical transition of one inning”
And as I said, his numbers give no indication that he is suffering in any sense from that transition. Thus your claim here is a red herring – there is no supporting data to suggest that the manner in which they moved him from the bullpen to the rotation has had any adverse effect on his pitching.
“I was basing all of this on the notion that their best starter, Wang, would remain healthy”
Which he didn’t; which means your entire argument has no basis—in fact, it’s fortunate the Yankees managed Joba the way they did or their rotation would be in even worse shape than it is. In which case, having Joba in the bullpen would not be helping the team at all.
And please - ‘they might have won more games” - try to recall that much of the problems with the team in April and May centered around the lack of OFFENSE not pitching. They were losing games because they weren’t scoring runs…so the idea that the team would be in any better position now is ludicrous…or…inane (take your pick).
by detroit yankee on Aug 1, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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