Joba upsets Mike and the Mad Dog
by anaconda on May 8, 2008 10:59 PM EDT
in Analysis
41 comments
So I happened to catch about 15 minutes of Mike and the Mad Dog this afternoon following the Yanks' game and quickly realized exactly why I can't stand listening to them.
For whatever reason, Mike Francesa and Chris Russo have destroyed millions of their listeners' brain cells by spending extensive time on the topic of Joba Chamberlain's "immaturity" because of his emotions on the mound as well as in the dugout after a rough outing.
Pete Abe provides a brief but accurate synopsis of their argument from Thursday afternoon:
- Joba should never pump his fist when he pitches well. That shows the opposition up.
- Joba should sit in the dugout and "stare out on the field" after he gives it up and not cover his head with a towel. That shows too much emotion, too.
- Joba didn’t say he got even with David Dellucci today. But that’s what he meant.
Now I understand the need to fill five hours of [dead] air-time on a daily basis, but I'll never understand why this is such a big issue for these guys and why it somehow reflects on Joba's lack of maturity.
Perhaps you'll recall Harlan Chamberlain last season in Kansas City when he watched his son (with tears streaming down his face) take a big league mound for the first time and had a fist pump of his own after a long fly ball descended into the glove of Johnny Damon at a critical part of the game.
Joba's emotion is a trait he got directly from his own father and I don't see how it reflects negatively on his character. A much better way to measure Joba's level of maturity is the way he handles himself with the media, his relationship with his teammates and coaches, and, of course, his actions off the field and in his private life. Until I see evidence that proves otherwise, every indication shows that Joba is a good kid who handles himself extremely well in all aspects of life.
Players cannot always change who they are emotionally and mimic Mariano Rivera or Derek Jeter in order to simply cater to a couple of sports radio hosts who have nothing else worthwhile to talk about after a Yankees win.
For the record, I don't care if players like Carlos Zambrano, Francisco Rodriguez, C.C. Sabathia, or [gasp] Jon Papelbon show displays of emotion on the mound after a strikeout because it really isn't a big deal. As Pete Abe later pointed out, why is a display of emotion not only acceptable but encouraged in other major sports like football, hockey, golf and basketball but generally viewed as taboo in baseball?
I don't get it and probably never will. I'd be happy to read anyone's explanation telling me why I'm wrong.
Discuss.
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If
nobody called them about it, they would stop talking about it. But everytime they talk about it, the phone lines light up, and people like Pete Abe and you write about it. They are interested in one thing – getting people to listen to them. The people who hate them are just as valuable as the people who love them, in fact often times the haters listen longer (as illustrated in “Private Parts”).
They are making a mountain of a mole hill here, but that’s their job.
I’m from the “act like you’ve been there before” school, and I would prefer Joba not do it, but it’s not a big deal.
When Dellucci took him deep the game before he acted like he’d just hit a spring training home run. I kinda think that’s how it should be done.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on May 8, 2008 11:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also
Pete’s wrong. The NFL and the NBA have both taken measures to discourage that type of behavior. You can go off and celebrate by yourself, but “taunting” your opponent is a foul in both sports now, and called more often.
I’m not saying what Joba is doing is taunting, but if, for example, he dunked on somebody or sacked the QB and then screamed and pumped his fist while facing the guy he did it to, that might get him in trouble with the officials.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on May 8, 2008 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taunting and excessive celebration is different
I don’t think what Joba is doing is taunting in the same breath that I don’t think what Zambrano, Sabathia, or K-Rod does is taunting. It’s genuine emotion after making a good pitch or whatever. I think there’s a big difference.
Fans of other sports like football believe a lack of emotion on the field often translates to a lack of energy – especially on the defensive side of the ball. We expect those guys to get fired up and it helps to get the home crowd into the game. Emotion is a very big part of the sport.
by anaconda on May 8, 2008 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a matter of opinion
which is why Mike & the Dog brought it up in the first place.
It drives me crazy when K-Rod and Papelbon do it, so I’d be a hypocrite if I was fine with Joba doing it.
When you do it right on the mound, where the whole stadium can see you, it can come across wrong (and it has in some cases). Once he gets to the dugout, which is only a few seconds away, they can do whatever the hell they want.
If after making contact, Dellucci stayed in the batter’s box and screamed and pumped his fist like a maniac, that would not be ok. I don’t see how that is different from what Joba and other pitchers are doing.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on May 9, 2008 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weren't you the one that mentioned
the special on HBO with Costas, Strahan, Chris Russo? I only caught a bit of it so far. I am still waiting for it to re-air so I can watch in it’s entirety. But the time I did watch, I heard Chris Russo talk about being negative so that the listeners have something to argue with them about. As matthaggs has stated “right out of the Howard Stern success guide”. I’m willing to bet the percentage of their fan base that hates them towers over the percentage of the fan base that doesn’t. I wouldn’t take their views at face value.
by bronxbound on May 8, 2008 11:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It was me
and yes, Russo did make that point. You should definitely check out the Costas replay just to see Buzz Bissinger go nuts. Wil Leitch handled himself pretty well if you ask me.
I know MMD talk about this tripe for ratings. No question about it. But at least they could make some valid points on occasion. I can’t remember the last time I agreed with anything they said.
by anaconda on May 9, 2008 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well they are paid to be jerks.
Fun fact: My brother played a charity basketball game against him a few years ago and he told me, “His personality in real life certainly mimics his personality on the air. He really is a jerk.”
by bronxbound on May 9, 2008 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From an Indians fan viewpoint, I saw it as Chamberlain being a jack-@ss. It was a low key situation with no one on, two men out and a three run lead. I can understand if it is a huge spot in the playoffs, sure pump your fist and let out a yell. But this is May and the situation didn’t call for a spinning pumping fist. Does Tiger Woods pump his fist when he makes a par putt on the third hole on a Thursday?
If Travis Hafner stood at home and watched a HR in a 3 run game, he would get drilled the next AB, yet Chamberlain seems to think that everyone should be used to his antics. Anyone remember Carlos Perez?
by Bernie19Kosar on May 9, 2008 12:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you.
It isn’t necessary. But look at anaconda point of view. That is who he is. It’s called individuality. Who are you to spite him of it? You mention Tiger Woods. Is it necessary for him to do the fist-pump? No. But that is his emotion doing the fist-pump. It’s not to spite anyone. Look around the NFL, is it necessary for everyone to pose to the fans after making a tackle? They are playing a game after all, and in my opinion it makes the game more exicting to watch. Don’t take it personal. It’s just Joba being Joba.
by bronxbound on May 9, 2008 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that he is “an emotional guy”, but I don’t buy the whole “player X is just being player X” excuse. I didn’t buy it when I heard it from Red Sox fans when Manny stood at home with his hands in the air when he hit a HR down by 4 in the playoffs, and I don’t but it for a pitcher who has 37 innings in the majors doing it when he K’s a guy with no one on with a three run lead. Just because a guy acts like a punk a lot, doesn’t mean that it’s cool.
You are all Yankee fans and love the guy, I get it. I am just getting my point of view out there. The difference in baseball and football is it comes down to a man to man competition and one has to lose. Rubbing the other persons face in that failure is viewed as bush league. I guess it comes down to the old adage, act like you have been there before. (Even if you haven’t).
by Bernie19Kosar on May 9, 2008 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate your point of view
But I don’t think it’s a big deal when other pitchers do it.
I do think Manny is a bit different because his antics do border on taunting. I can’t stand when anybody stands at the plate, Yankee players included. I’ve chided Cano and Melky for such antics.
Again, though, this topic originally started on Tuesday when MMD didn’t like how Joba reacted after blowing a lead. My thinking is who are they to judge how a player should or shouldn’t react after giving up a lead late in the game.
Indians fan or not, I welcome everyone’s point of view on this topic. My response wasn’t meant to diminish your opinion.
by anaconda on May 9, 2008 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One could also argue
that anything Manny Ramirez does on the field is going to be viewed differently than other players because he’s had such a long history of “Manny being Manny” with such bizarre behavior both on the field and off it.
I think such character comparisons between Joba and Manny is apples and oranges and I don’t think a fist pump after a strikeout should be a negative reflection on Joba’s maturity or character as a whole.
by anaconda on May 9, 2008 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I saw it I thought to myself
well he’s pretty excited! How about you NoMaas? You still don’t care?
Fans get pumped up for that kind of stuff.
(I don’t know why that post has rubbed me so wrong… they run one of the bigger yankees blogs and then say they don’t care about the team they cover? what!?)
Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.
by Edwantsacracker on May 9, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a big fan of NoMaas myself
I think what has bugged me the most about them is that they couldn’t go more than a couple of days without referencing Torre in some negative way.
I mean, if they didn’t like him – that’s fine. But the guy was the Dodgers’ manager for months and they were still talking about Torre every few days. At least have some respect for the guy for managing 12 straight seasons of playoff baseball.
by anaconda on May 9, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you missed my point entirely.
Do I like it when Manny poses after he blasts one over the green monster when we are up against him? No. Do I think he is taunting or “showing us up” by doing that. No again. It is merely a personal trait of self gratification playing a game. Have you ever played sports? I have had many of those instances and I can tell you it was never to taunt anyone. There is a big difference between emotion and taunting.
by bronxbound on May 9, 2008 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think
it has to be judged on a case-by-case basis.
is Junior’s slow walk out of the box after a homerun a taunt? i don’t think so. is Manny’s usual stare-down a taunt? no. is Papelbitch’s scream after a three-run save a taunt? i don’t feel like it is, he’s just a douche. is Michael Strahan’s flex after a sack a taunt? nah.
but when Manny stands at home plate with his arms raised in the air for five minutes, that’s a taunt. when K-Rod basically acts like Ronaldo (insert prostitue joke here) after scoring the game-winning goal in the World Cup after each and every save, regardless of the situation, that’s a taunt. when Randy Moss turned around and slowly backpedalled into the endzone during a Vikings/Giants MNF game a couple years ago, that was a taunt.
there’s a fine line between a spur-of-the-moment genuine emotional reaction and a pre-meditated celebration.
by Clutch like Leyritz on May 9, 2008 7:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
who really talks about old adages. Its 2008 almost no one plays by the types of invisible guidelines anymore. If he wants to pump his fist after a strikeout, who cares. He’s a kid who just struck out a guy who tagged him for a three run homer the night before. Delucci is jus a baby, he was a yankee once im so happy we got rid of him. The thing that gets to me most is all the mets fans who call up every afternoon and complain about Joba. Who are they kidding Jose Reyes dances in the dug out eveytime he hits a home run or scores a run. Then when he doesnt hit they cry about how willie doesnt let him be himself. How can they complain about someone showing emotion on antoher team but then basically ask theyre manager to ease off of one of theyre own so he can do it? Mets fans are the worst people of all time
by yankee_fan on May 21, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see it that way
Joba hasn’t done the whole fist pump thing since Opening Day, so you would be wrong in suggesting it’s something he does all the time. He doesn’t. He actually did it a lot more last season.
Today was a bit of a test for him because it was his first appearance after his terrible outing on Monday.
Besides, this was a topic on MMD that began Tuesday. Apparently, not only do they dislike his emotion on the mound – but his emotion in the dugout after a rough night as well.
I guess a blank stare is more appropriate after giving up a lead late in the game. Maybe Joba needs to kick a water cooler like Paul O’Neill did in his heyday. I wonder if they considered his antics to be immature when the Yanks were winning rings.
by anaconda on May 9, 2008 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't
think this is a big deal at all. it’s nice to see a departure from the “corporate” yankee image. however, i do think it would have been more badass if joba just walked off the mound after that K like nothing happened. i think tiki barber put it best when he said that he doesn’t celebrate after a TD because he believes in acting “like you’ve been there before.” maybe over time, to joba, K-ing guys in big spots will be no big deal.
by tombradylikesdudes on May 9, 2008 1:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like my Yankees Cocky!
When will then be now? Soon.
by Syphon on May 9, 2008 2:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Joba fist pump
Oh who freaking cares?
I’m glad to see a little fire in the belly in some Yankee.
I like Mo’s “all about business” approach but I like the fist pump too. It’s about Mo being Mo and Joba being Joba. Is only Manny Ramirez allowed to be “Manny being Manny”? Everyone else has to change for public opinion? Esp Mike and MadDog and who cares what the Indians think? I certainly don’t. If other teams don’t like it: I DON’T CARE.
I don’t want a cookie cutter Yankee pitcher, whatever that is. I’d like to see a little bit of swagger in the House That Ruth Built (remember him, the guy who – legend has it – pointed to where he was going to homer).
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
by bxgrl1 on May 9, 2008 8:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There were two things that bothered me...
about this discussion on M&MD
1) It took away from the fact that they could have actually been discussing something RE: Joba that had NOTHING to do with a stupid fist pump…the fact that he bounced back from a bad outing and had a good one. The big thing everyone has asked about him is how he would react to failure. Well…he failed, big time, and came back strong his next time out. That should be noted. PLUS they also could have been discussing some other relevant topics like the fact that Moose just won his fourth straight start (although he pitched so-so) and that Cano might be starting to show signs of waking up from his offensive slumber.
2) Russo said “Now Joba didn’t say this, but he thinks he got back at Delluci.” And then he continued to say that that’s how Joba felt. Really Chris? How the hell do you know that? If Joba didn’t say it, like you admitted at the beginning of your ridiculous rant, than why jump to that conclusion and then repeat it like it’s fact?
I only listen to them in 5-minute spurts usually, because I find 90% of the stuff they say infuriating. I might have to even cut down from that.
by bfriley76 on May 9, 2008 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re # 2
If Tuesday night didn’t happen, and Joba was pitching to Dellucci with a two outs, a three run lead, and nobody on base, he would not have reacted the way he did following the strikeout.
Jumping back to reality (Tuesday night did happen) I don’t think he would have reacted the way he did if he was pitching to anyone else on the Indians in that particular situation.
I can see why you have a problem with someone like Russo stating his opinion as fact, but its not exactly a leap to suggest that Joba took the Dellucci at-bat very personally.
The game was not on the line by any stretch. Joba made the moment all about him, and that’s what I didn’t like about it.
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on May 9, 2008 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My main problem was with Russo saying that
even though it was probably true. I just hate the fact that they scream their opinion at dissenting callers like it’s fact, without considering the other side of the argument, I know that’s basically the foundation for all talk radio, I’m not stupid, but my opinion so often differs with theirs, it drives me extra nuts.
And as for taking the Dellucci at bat personally. Good! I want him to. I’m surprised all Yankee fans don’t. I want him to be pissed this guy beat him and I want him to do everything he can to never have let him beat him again. I want him to get pumped for it, and I’m fine with him showing emotion when he gets the job done.
by bfriley76 on May 9, 2008 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
if I wasn’t so bored today I wouldn’t be typing anything, but to me it depends on the situation.
2-1 game, eighth inning, people on base – you get a strikeout there I don’t have much of a problem with Joba doing his thing.
6-3 game, nobody on base, two outs – not necessary. The strikeout was much more important to Joba than it was to his team, and that whole personal aspect of it rubbed me the wrong way.
(Plus, when it really mattered, Dellucci beat him.)
"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death
by matthaggs on May 9, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the moment was about him
I don’t think it had anything to do with one-upping Delucci like Russo suggested, though. I just think he was pumped he was able to bounce back and what better way than to do it against the guy who burned you the other night. But, I have about as much basis for that theory as Russo does for his, so this will forever remain go-to sports talk radio material.
by seanp23 on May 9, 2008 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Passion and Fire ...
So long as a player-any player isn’t disrespecting the game, I love to see fire and passion burning. I want to see that a player is affected by something he did. Lou Piniella, Paul O’Neill, Billy Martin (although the latter was a loon in my opinion). In the same breath I Iike to see the cool-void of emotion style of Don Mattingly, Jeter, Pujols.
I’m not interested in cookie-cutter robots all behaving the same way. Celebrate, get excited, but don’t disrespect the game in the process.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on May 9, 2008 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's the key...
and Joe G. addressed this after the game. He wasn’t showing Dellucci up. He was pumped and looked into his own dugout. I say more power to him. If I could throw cheese like that I’d be celebrating a hell of a lot more then he was.
by bfriley76 on May 9, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That said ...
I’m not a big fan of celebrating in the NFL, where guys get all pumped for making a tackle… Please.
In the NFL, give me a guy like Barry Sanders who crashed the goal line and handed the ball to the ref as if to say, “Yup, I’ve been here before.”
Baseball is abit different. Standing at homeplate worshipping a homer disrespects the game in my opinion. Years ago in a AA game, I gave up a homer to a guy and he stood there pumping his fist. When he got to third, he glared at me. The next time he got up, I stuck my heat in his ribs. Not because I was personally offended, but because he disrespected the game.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on May 9, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the sake of argument..
Would you still enjoy watching the game if all celebration and taunting were stripped from it? I personally wouldn’t enjoy sports as much as I do without them. I am all for respecting the game as well, and some taunts definitely step over the line. However it still is a form of entertainment and in my opinion, I think everyone has the right to play the game how they want to. I respect Barry Sanders, LaDainian Tomlinson, Jeter, etc. approach of “act as if I’ve been here before”, but the game would be boring to watch if everyone played with that same candor.
by bronxbound on May 9, 2008 12:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think there's something
to this line of thought. It really has to be judged situation by situation.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
by jscape2000 on May 9, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love the game for the game
Raw, unscripted bursts of emotion during any sporting event whether it be bowling, or baseball or freakin’ curling is fine. I personally don’t like taunting in any sport. Let your skill carry you—not your mouth. As I said earlier, I enjoyed watching Piniella go all Chernobyl. I relished those moments when O’Neill went OJ on the watercooler. But in the same breath I like the coolness of Barry Sanders, of Derek Jeter. There’s plenty of room for emotion and personality without crossing over the line of disrespect for the game.
Joba isn’t showing anyone up. He’s not trying to have the spotlight turned from the game to him. It’s all youthful exuberance—nothing is scripted, it’s just pouring out of him. But to others like TO, Ocho Cinco it’s all about turning the spotlight to them. That’s where you lose me.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
by Ronster22 on May 9, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right or wrong, some people are forgetting this is a 22 year old kid with barely 30 innings under his belt. God knows we have all done embarrassing things or let our emotions get the best of us at that age. As a Yankee fan, you do have to worry about a guy that is so emotional. Historically, those types don’t last very long in the big leagues.
That being said, what a shame the Indians can’t play the Yankees anymore this season. The next few series would have been very interesting to watch and much better than watching us play the Reds or the Giants or the Yankees play the Mets (again) or the Reds.
by Toxicadam on May 9, 2008 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Joba was excited....
because it the same part of the order which burned him Friday night. He was pumped that he threw mostly fastballs to get the outs – further expanding his game by adjusting to what hurt him Friday in throwing too many breaking pitches.
But, he needs to tone it down when he gets a strikeout. Joba even stalks down and around the mound after a strikeout in the middle of the inning. He is way too young to get a bad rep.
Dellucci was absolutely perfect in his comments and you can not fault him for speaking his opinion. His HR on Friday was way more important than an 8th inning strikeout down three runs. And Dellucci did not overreact.
I would have loved to see a better reaction from Joba on Friday night after giving up the home run. Instead of sulking behind the mound, he should have gotten the next ball immediately from the umpire and been on the rubber waiting for the next batter…then drilled a 100 MPH heater right by him.
One of my coaches in college said to us as a group just before we started play in the College World Series that year – “act like you’ve been there before.”
Joba should have done the same – both Friday night and yesterday afternoon.
by thejobarules on May 9, 2008 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d only throw out that if the circumstances were reversed, and that had been Raffy Perez striking out Matsui, I’m confident you’d hear a lot more calls ‘round here for the next Indians batsman to get plunked than you would hear, “Oh, he’s young and emotional.”
I think it’s pretty clear that a lot of different kinds of milder celebration - smacking the mitt or whatever - wouldn’t have raised a fuss. So we’re talking about the degree of Chamberlain’s reaction, not that he reacted. And because this is all subjective, the fact that so many people consider his behavior to have been a bit much is evidence that it was, in fact, a bit much. Maybe not the way Mike and Mad Dog portrayed it, but enough to ruffle feathers nonetheless.
If you’d like some rather extended discussion of the same incident from the opposite view, check this out at LGT.
by fleerdon on May 9, 2008 4:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No thanks
I’m sure Tribe fans hated it because he did it against them. That’s fine because it’s not unexpected.
The difference between me and most of the Tribe faithful is that I don’t care if other players show emotion like that on the field against the Yanks. I’m not wearing Yankee blinders here. You guys don’t have a problem with Sabathia doing it but you do have a problem with Joba doing it.
BoSox fans don’t like to see Joba doing it but don’t have a problem with Papelbon. Hey, that’s the way it goes.
It’s not a big deal. I had an opinion on the matter and I wanted to address it. I encourage Tribe fans to chime in as well.
by anaconda on May 9, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The LGT reactions are more nuanced than you indicate, but I was just dropping the link off more than promoting any particular view that followed from it. Of course I agree with your last point—it’s always worse and more noticeable when it’s the other guy. That was more or less what I was getting at.
As to your main post: Yeah, this whole flare-up smacks mostly of airtime-filler. The rest of Chamberlain’s life is more important than a fist-pump or a scream. That said, I don’t think most people are saying that he’s a bad guy in general, only that he breached etiquette. (Which was probably the question posed to Dellucci, in so many words: “Did he go too far?”) I’m not moved by the idea that he merits some kind of special exemption on account of his parentage or temperament. Either it was excessive celebration given the circumstances, or it wasn’t.
by fleerdon on May 9, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blog Writer Upset That Joba Upset Mike and the Mad Dog
We all have opinions and we love to express them. Some of us do it professionally, others do it as a hobby. Our opinions help define us as humans. The need to express ourselves in one way or another is one of the central aspect of the human species.
As for me, I honestly don’t care either way. What I don’t like, anymore, are the constant curtain calls for almost every single home run a player hits. Didn’t the curtain call used to mean something? Now, like The Wave, it is over-done and worn out, a relic of a bygone era. What’s the next thing people will wear out and relegate to the Closet of Overkill?
Thank you, won’t you?
"We praise or blame as one or the other affords more opportunity for exhibiting our power of judgment." Friedrich Nietzsche, "All Too Human" (1878)
by wgarrett on May 10, 2008 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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