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Thinking About Joba's Pitch Selection

Matthaggs expressed concern last night that Joba's transition to the rotation is not happening well.

Basically, haggs is worried that pitch count does not equal performance, that Joba's reliance upon his fastball-slider combo will not be as effective the second or third time through a lineup unless he mixes in his curve and change, too.  I think this a perfectly legitimate concern.

So my question is: How often does a pitcher need to throw his third and fourth pitches in order to keep hitters honest?  Obviously, the answer depends on how good those various pitches are. 

So far this season*, Joba has thrown his fastball 67% of the time, his slider 25%, his curve 7%, and his change only 1%.  So I set off searching for effective starting pitchers with good fastballs who mixed their pitches in a similar pattern (as there is no sortable database that I know of, this is a very unscientific, hunt-and-peck approach). I tried to select a few pitchers from (what I think of as) the categories "elite," "solid," "mediocre," and "Ponson."

Massive post after the jump...

Star-divide

 

*I'm using FanGraphs for all these pitch selection numbers; they do not include last night's game.  I'm only using 2008 numbers because the previous numbers are flawed- the Pf/x system used to assume that any pitcher could throw any pitch and identified that pitch based on movement; the current data limits the pitch options to pitches the pitcher actually throws.  It's still not perfect, but it's a big improvement.

 

Pitcher 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
Joba 67% 25% 7% 1%
Jake Peavy 54% 25% 13% 8%
Brandon Webb 70% 17% 13% 1%
Johan Santana 60% 25% 15% --
C.C. Sabathia 60% 20% 20% >1%
Josh Beckett 68% 21% 11% --
James Shields 49% 29% 14% 8%
Dan Haren 55% 22% 20% 3%
Cole Hamels 57% 30% 13% --
Aaron Harang 71% 25% 2% 2%
John Maine 69% 25% 6& >1%
Matt Cain 68% 11% 11% 10%
Roy Oswalt 61% 19% 14% 5%
Kyle Lohse 60% 24% 10% 6%
Jeremy Bonderman 64% 30% 7% --
Ian Snell 62% 33% 5% --

So what trends do we see developing?

1st pitch:  Of 15 pitchers, only 3 throw their fastball less than 60% of the time, while 5 of them throw it as often as Joba has so far.  (Granted, Webb and Cain are sinkerballers, so Joba might need to dial back the fastball).

2nd pitch:  25% seems like the ideal for a second pitch.  The only guys whose second pitches are outside the 20-30% range are Ian Snell, Cain and Webb.  As noted earlier, the later two are sinkerballers, and the less Joba is like Ian Snell the happier I'll be.

3rd and 4th pitches:  This is the pitch that Joba will need to start throwing more, but not much more.  Joba has thrown 375 pitches so far this season and 26 curveballs and 4 changeups.  Throwing one extra curve or change every hundred pitches move the needle 1%, so switching one fastball to the curve/change each inning would make the third pitch jump to 14%.  20% seems like the average for third and fourth together.  Of the 10 starters with a 4th pitch, only 3 of them (Cain, Shields, and Peavy) throw more than one an inning.  

The third/fourth pitch is tricky to look at on a chart like this- is it one that the pitcher flashes to change looks on the hitter, or is one that he only uses when is second pitch is questionable?

I think Joba can be successful even if his percentages stay where they are- his great control could allow him to establish his curve and/or change early, and then he would only need to use it as a show-me.  Then again, Baseball America ranked Joba's curveball as the best in the system (since Phil Hughes' hammer was no longer eligible), so Joba could begin to go to that as often as his slider the way Sabathia and Haren mix their pitches.

Joba could learn to rely on his change more than his curve, since it breaks in the opposite direction as his slider and curve, and the 15 mph difference between fastball and change is almost unfair. 

Regardless of Joba's long term options, I see no reason to doubt that he can be effective for a couple starts throwing fastball/slider while flashing the curve and change.

 

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Excellent post

And excellent topic.

I noticed the very same thing about this transition that Haggs noticed. But he raised the issue on this board first, so kudos to him.

But the more I thought about this last night after the game – the less concerned I became. The reason for that is that most pitchers – at least quality ones – tend to primarily use his two best pitches the first time through the order, especially the fastball, and mix in other pitches every once in awhile. And, as Jscape noted, they tend to increase the number of their secondary pitches more the second and third times through the order.

Now I did hear the postgame show last night and Girardi instructed Joba to throw mainly fastballs and sliders, so obviously that part of it is completely by design.

But the one thing that still concerns me is that he still has the mentality as a setup man/closer right now (as Haggs also mentioned) because he was really dialing up his fastball when he got into trouble with his command as he did in the 7th inning – especially against Millar. He completely blew Millar away with two fastballs that reached 98 MPH and the former idiot had no chance.

Nonetheless, Joba has to pace himself a little better because he’s going to be gassed by the time he reaches 50-60 pitches if this becomes a pattern and he decides to dial it up and blow people away when he gets in a bit of trouble. And he’s going to have to learn to pitch to contact more because those strikeouts and full counts are going to run his pitch count up rather quickly.

Obviously, we expect a lot out of Joba because he’s Joba – but the team is going to have to take whatever growing pains come with this process. Let’s just hope the kid stays healthy.

Again, great topic – especially on an off-day.

by anaconda on May 29, 2008 7:19 AM EDT   0 recs

Do you remember Pedro Martinez in his prime?

He had great movement, he had great breaking balls. But, when he was in trouble he dialed a couple fastball way up and blasted his way out of trouble.

The reason most starters don’t do that is that they can’t. And Pedro can’t anymore. Someday Joba won’t be able to. Right now we don’t know how often he’ll have to go this route. If it’s too much he might lose the ability to do it. But Rocket and Ryan threw very hard for a very long time.

Joba has a very unusual ability. There are a number of ways for him to be successful. It’s going to be fun to watch.

By the way, great post. Thanks for the research.

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)

by Cbeck3 on May 29, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Joba will rule

Pitch selection means nothing if you can’t execute. So let’s begin with that. Joba needs to pitch ahead 75 to 80 percent of the time. First pitch strikes can never be overstated. On my AAU team I preach first pitch strikes and keep a running tab. So far this season my kids are 83 percent effective. In those at-bats where they are throwing first pitch strikes, the opposition is batting .207. In at-bats where my pitcher’s don’t throw first ball strikes the average soars to .324.

First pitch execution is where the success is.

Don’t forget that Joba was a starter in college, and throughout the minors-he has an idea. He has excellent stuff, and he’ll be helped by Posada, Molina and Moeller (each calls an exceptional game). My chief concern is first pitch execution and pitching ahead to the hitters. Doing so puts hitters on edge and tips the scales to the pitcher-especially one that can blow you away with high cheese, or make you look like Mary the school-girl with a nasty slider.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on May 29, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Joba's Pitching Selection

Now when I heard the news that Joba was making the move to the starting rotation I had my questions and concerns. But now that I can see what he can do with more room to work I am excited to see what he can do. Now I know what you all are thinking (especially the fans that are still reserved) but dont worry about his stamina and his quality of pitches 3 and 4. He again was a starter in College and again I know the speed of the game is a lot faster and the emotion is a lot more intense in the bigs, but non the less he will again get his legs underneath him. I believe once he learns not wear his emotions on his sleeve and be a little more tactical when on the mound, remember its not a fist fight there is strategy involved in great pitching. Once all this is done he will be the best pitcher of our era. Now I know I am a die hard Yankee fan and I know he is a Yankee pitcher but if this kid played for Boston I would be saying the same thing, he has the most natural stuff I have seen in a long time. He will carry the Yankees in the 3rd or 4th spot and will be a fresh new look. Now if I was the Yankee brass I would try and get someone to either anchor the 5th spot and get rid of Hughes or sign a reliever to bring up the slack. So imagine this NY with a starting rotation of : Wang, Pettiete , Joba, Moose, Kennedy. Now this is not the most feared rotation in baseball but when push comes to shove I will take that over most of the rotations in the AL.

Once Joba gets his 4 pitches firing on all cylinders I will make this prediction….Joba will win the Cy Young within the next 3 years la la la la lock it up.

by Mikeg3099 on May 29, 2008 11:41 AM EDT   0 recs

whoa

whoa, whoa! “get rid of hughes,” why ?! you want to get rid of a 21 year old kid that was consistently rated as the best pitching prospect in baseball because he’s on the shelf? he hasn’t had a critical injury, i.e. shoulder or elbow and you want to get rid of him at his lowest possible value?

by tombradylikesdudes on May 29, 2008 4:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Jake Peavy

basically threw only fastballs and sliders 99% of the time up until last season and it worked well for him.

Scott Kazmir threw 50 straight fastballs againt the Yanks this season. He won.

Daniel Cabrera of the Orioles threw almost nothing but fastballs against the Yanks this year, too.

Most outs in baseball are recorded on well placed fastballs. Most pitchers now are 4 seam fastball, two seam fastball and changeup pitchers.

The slider and especially the splitter are being discouraged in pro baseball because those are the two pitchers which hurt the elbow and shoulder, respectively.

I am surprised Nardi and the Yanks let him throw it so much.

Joba will be fine.

by thejobarules on May 29, 2008 4:12 PM EDT   0 recs

I'm not concerned about him throwing mostly fastballs

It’s his velocity. Obviously, it takes more effort to throw a pitch 98 MPH than it does 93-94 MPH.

If he has to dial it up regularly, his stamina won’t be there – which is why I said he needs to pace himself a bit better.

by anaconda on May 29, 2008 7:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It takes Joba no more effort to throw 98 than it takes Pettitte to throw 89. It’s maximum effort either way.
Maybe I’ve misread your comment- yes, Joba will be more effective if can get by throwing 95, then dial it up to 98 in the big spots.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 29, 2008 7:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's my point

He was throwing at maximum effort a little more than I would like. Sure, it’s cool to watch the radar gun light up – but that doesn’t really help his stamina much.

Check out the AB by Jay Payton last night on Gameday. He threw four straight fastballs clocked at 99, 98, 98, and 100. That’s not a starter’s mentality – that’s closer’s mentality.

It’s not like he was throwing to Manny Ramirez with the bases loaded. This happened with 2 outs and nobody on base to a guy who is primarily a bench guy. Then again, he might have figured he was coming out in favor of Mo the next inning anyways and decided to dial it up for that reason.

We’ll never know how he would have approached the next inning because game action is obviously a big difference than finishing his night in the pen and I’m sure he wasn’t throwing as hard to the bullpen catcher.

I just want this kid to get through this transition smoothly and healthy. I have little doubt he’s going to be a bad mother once the growing pains that will come with this move have come and gone.

by anaconda on May 29, 2008 8:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ha Ha

I just noticed that NoMaas made the same reference to Jay Payton’s AB.

by anaconda on May 29, 2008 8:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I understand the concern

but just because we saw him emptying the tank last night doesn’t mean that he won’t save something in a start. Until I see him start I can’t really worry about the stamina concerns.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 29, 2008 10:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We have no basis to think

we know what his stamina will be like.

His starts in the minors last year were spectacular.

He’s clearly learning how to use his considerable talent.

Relax and enjoy the show

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)

by Cbeck3 on May 29, 2008 11:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m very aware of his success last season and in college. We watched and covered his progression in the minors last season before he ever made his major league debut.

We knew about Joba months before Mike and the Dog had ever heard of him.

My concern is his health and the Yanks might be taking this a little too fast. I’d rather take it a bit slower and make sure he’s physically ready to do it.

I have little doubt he’s going to be a bad ass once he gets over the hump and really learns how to start in the major leagues.

by anaconda on May 30, 2008 12:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

First off, wow to Jscape. That’s a very impressive compilation of numbers. which is coming from someone who is not easily impressed by numbers.

I could easily write 1,000 words on how frustrated I am with this entire process, and how poorly the Yankees handled this. And I might.

But the headline for me is, as anaconda says, I think the Yanks are moving too fast with him.

Look, he’s got a lightning bolt for an arm and more often than not he’s going to get hitters out, but chew on this….

Whenver someone mentions that Joba should stay in the bullpen full-time (and I don’t believe he should), there are a couple of immediate reflexive retorts, and way up on the retort list is an expanded version of something like, “Joba belongs in the rotation because he has a wide assortment of pitches at his disposal.”

Well, if he’s not throwing those pitches at all, then he’s going to have to rely on pure power. Hopefully he doesn’t overthrow and lose his impeccable control, and hopefully he will learn by next year to mix in his other pitches.

The example I can think of (without looking at numbers) is he can be a 2003 Beckett, but there will be a downturn unless he learns how to be a 2007 Beckett, which he’s more than capable of doing. Same guy, same power arm, but the ‘07 model learned how to pitch after the league caught up to his power.

"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death

by matthaggs on May 30, 2008 2:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well said....

And I agree with that assessment and comparison to Beckett.

If you really want to write an extensive post on the topic – go right ahead and I’ll frontpage it.

This is an issue that’s not really being addressed in the media or blogosphere. Instead, the focus is on whether he should be a starter in the first place or not. But all of that is a moot point because the organization has already made their decision and that’s that.

As you well know, there hasn’t been a more rabid advocate on PA for Joba to make the switch to the rotation than me. But I want to see them take this thing slower and make sure he’s physically (and mentally) ready to do it.

I don’t care if Igawa has to be the sacrificial lamb again for another couple of starts while Joba continues to stretch his arm out because his health is far more important to this team than a few measly games.

Joba is essentially the Golden Boy of this organization now and it would make me sick if they screw this up and rush into it before he’s ready.

by anaconda on May 30, 2008 3:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I care

No Igawa!!!

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 30, 2008 5:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for the kind words.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 30, 2008 5:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Joba should be given more

three to four inning stints in relief before he makes the transition to the starting spot. The 3 to 4 inning stint is what separates the starter from the reliever. I still don’t know why they didn’t let Joba finish the game two nights ago to boost his innings transition.
He needs to piggy back a starter for at least two more appearances. It makes no sense to start Joba next week after only going 1 1/3 innings the other day.
On the other hand – when Joba started in Trenton last season he would regularly throw low 90’s early in the game, but consistently be in the high 90’s in the 7th inning later in the same game.

by thejobarules on May 30, 2008 1:31 PM EDT   0 recs

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