Enough Already

by LateInningRelief on May 10, 2008 8:17 AM EDT

Consider me the lone voice of dissent in saying that while Wells himself is not the right move, throwing the young guns into the mix to see if one of them can handle the challenge isn't either. Let's see IPK string another couple victories together in Scranton. White and Marquez aren't ready yet either; otherwise, nobody in their right mind would have put Igawa on the mound yesterday. Rasner did well last go-round, and hopefully he can fill the #4 slot for a bit. McCutch and the rest: Let's discuss in July.

Here's the point:

The idea of bringing in a veteran, in my view, is about letting the young guns develop at their own pace. This is not Tampa, and we're not the Rays. I saw the long list RAB put up the other day, laying out all the in-house talent they'd prefer to give a shot over Wells. While I'd probably pick AAA talent over tub-o-goo, let's get real about how one a.) develops young talent and b.) does it in NYC.

The Yankee organization needs to stop over-compensating for years of larding the roster with overage stars by suddenly putting all of the onus on the young guns.

Okay, the ship has partially sailed. That's a given. And hopefully, IPK can get back into the swing, Rasner can hold down the fort and Hughes can get his mojo back. But organizationally, this focus on throwing kid after kid into the breach is sort of like trench warfare. Yeah, sooner or later, somebody's going to get through, but the attrition rate is too high.

Let's be smart about it. And let's give these kids a lot bigger net. Because it's all a game of expectations. Last year, IPK and Hughes had far less, and they won the expectations game. This year? Not so much.

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You may be in the minority on this issue, but your point is certainly valid. It seems like the organization though feels they have a better chance of finding an arm in their own system to help them win over a has-been like Wells or someone else. Although, I wouldn’t be surprised if they gave Freddy Garcia a look once he’s ready to come back from injury.

Cashman does have a pretty good track record with young kids in recent years. Sure, for every Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, or Ohlendorf a year ago, there’s a Chase Wright, DeSalvo, or Tyler Clippard that stunk up the joint. But that is why the organization has taken such an aggressive approach with stockpiling young arms.

Truthfully, the "Scranton Shuttle Bus Crew," in addition to the other young arms in the pen like Ohlendorf, Bruney (until his injury), and Joba have done a remarkably good job this season – especially when you consider all the movement back and forth and the fact that they’ve clearly been overworked as a result of the starters not eating enough innings.

I understand the starting rotation is a different animal than the pen, but I do think the organization is going to continue to give more young arms a shot to see what they can do. Some of those arms aren’t ready yet for sure, but we’re gonna see a few more tryouts before things are all said and done.

By the way, kudos to you for your thought-provoking FanPosts the last couple of weeks. It’s nice to have real baseball discussion on the boards rather than the mudslinging Olympics we had for much of April.

by anaconda on May 10, 2008 10:51 AM EDT reply reply 0 recs

The mudslinging Olympics

made it impossible to have a meaningful discussion, because any criticism of the organization put one into bed with he who shall remain nameless. Which was a fate far worse than watching Igawa pitch. Hopefully, if we get more balanced counterpoints, that vacuum isn’t filled by another scold trumpeting dumb predictions.

Truth be told, I can live with the FO letting Santana go, but they were wrong in not pursuing another veteran arm. I thought (and still think) Hawkins was a good move. Wells is definitely, BUT because he’s old, fat and no-good, not because there’s a bunch of guys in the minors who should get to audition. Thank God for the revelation that has been Mussina—because young guns need a.) cushions, b.) mentors and c.) low expectations.

Now Garcia could be an interesting move. We need Chacon, Pt II. An innings-eating veteran who might just surprise everybody.

Anyway,

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on May 10, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Correction:

Wells is definitely NOT

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on May 10, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

How Many....

Yankee fans here regret not making a trade for Johan Santana that previously favored not trading for him?

"We praise or blame as one or the other affords more opportunity for exhibiting our power of judgment." Friedrich Nietzsche, "All Too Human" (1878)

by wgarrett on May 10, 2008 1:12 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Not me

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 10, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Ditto

by anaconda on May 10, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

No regret here

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on May 10, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Re:

The non-trade for Santana wasn’t about who’d win more games in April or May – or this season for that matter. It was about the next 5-7 years and developing a young stable of horses in the rotation for years to come.

It wasn’t about just 2008. It was about 2009, 2010, 2011, and beyond.

I’m also hesitant about giving pitchers $100M+ contracts. We’ll see how the Santana deal works out in the long run, but every one of the previous $100M+ deals have been total busts (ie: Brown, Hampton, Zito, etc).

by anaconda on May 10, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I don't regret it,

because it wasn’t my flub. I wanted Santana. Do I regret that the FO didn’t see the wisdom of my position? Don’t have time for that. It might end up turning out okay. The kids are getting a whole lot of fast-tracked experience. As Mark Twain once said when a fan sent him her own manuscript, ‘it’s not the way I would have written it.’

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on May 10, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

love that quote.

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on May 10, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

The pressing question

is of course: who is this mystery veteran who will solve our problems? And how many of the young guys do we have to ship out to get this stop-gap?

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 10, 2008 1:12 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

that's my question

who COULD we trade for and what would it cost. I don’t like the answer to either of those questions.

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on May 10, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

That's your department, jscape,

My role is purely directional.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on May 10, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

My department

Well, see, that’s kind of the problem…

I’ve been turning this over in my head since Hughes hit the DL, and there is really no one I would rather have on the roster than the parade of kids we can call up from AAA and AA.
This isn’t just idle daydreaming about Daniel McCutchen pitching 7.2 innings of 2 hit ball with 8K and 1 BB.

I mean, even if we call up a string of Tyler Clippards and Chase Wrights- Clippard had 3 starts of 5+IP, 3 or fewer ER along with 3 starts worse than that; Wright looked decent against Cleveland (5IP, 5H, 3BB, 3ER) before his got bombed in Boston, then he came back in September and gave the team a strong showing in relief.

Is it worth trading Ohlendorf or a guy who could become a decent pitcher (starter or reliever) to pick up a guy like Westbrook who is owed two overpriced years? The price in prospects will be higher for a more reasonable (gulp) guy like Brett Tomko ($3 mil/ one year) or Braden Looper (5 mil/ one year).

There are no stopgaps this year (baring a miracle of Aaron Small proportions)- either the kids will pitch well or they won’t, and the season rests on those pitching shoulders.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 11, 2008 12:19 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Wells as stopgap

I too do not think he is such a bad idea. I’d only expect 10 or starts (say 2 great ones, 6 decent ones and 2 awful ones) for him before he breaks down or the adrenaline wears off but right now 10 starts would be very valuable while Hughes recovers, Kennedy and everyone else gets experience, and Joba gets ready for the rotation.

by stusviews on May 10, 2008 2:54 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Wells ...

I vote no to Wells. He quit on us years ago, and frankly, I think father time has taken whatever Mojo he once had. If we really need a veteran arm to sop up innings what about: Trachsel, (I like Garcia), Ponson (part deux)?

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on May 12, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Typical Yankee thought process

Is it so important to win this season? If you feel that the Yankees NEED to win this year, then by all means call for a trade for Joe Blanton, Bronson Arroyo or sign Freddy Garcia.

Or do you want the young guys to get an opportunity for the balance of the season and develop? Kennedy, Hughes and Rasner (still only 27) will never get better while pitching at Scranton. They need to pitch in the majors – even if it means coming in third in the AL East this season.

This statement by LateInningRelief says it all:
“The idea of bringing in a veteran, in my view, is about letting the young guns develop at their own pace. This is not Tampa, and we’re not the Rays.”

The last time I checked, the Rays are 2.5 games ahead of the Yankees, do not have a starting pitcher over age 26 or a position starter over 30. Maybe the Yankees should be more like the Rays.

The Rays are here to stay and (barring major injuries) will be a force over the next decade. They have a potent lineup, good young starting pitching and three STUD pitchers in the minor leagues just waiting for their look. Any knowing how the Rays work, they WILL get their look – a good, long look. Teams always need to replace current pitchers down the road with more young guys because of injuries or possible FA departures.

Anybody notice the Florida Marlins have the best record in baseball? And this is after Andrew Miller was 0-2 with a 9.68 after his first four starts this season. If he pitched for New York, Miller would have been booed, pressure would have ben to send him down saying he “needs more seasoning” and fans would have wanted to trade some young guys for a Joe Blanton.

But, the Marlins stuck with Miller and he is 3-0 in his last four starts with a 3.85 ERA. And last years bust for the Marlins, Scott Olsen, is 4-1 with a 2.63 ERA. Miller is 23 and Olsen in his third full major league season is still only 24!

As I have stated many times here before (and anaconda stated above), our young pitching is “about 2009, 2010, 2011, and beyond and not for this season.”

Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, Rasner and Kennedy. Let them go until Phil is ready again and depending how the Yanks are doing, then let Phil back in or get another young guy ready.

If you need another guy, then White or McCutchen or Marquez should get the shot. And they can’t have a rotating door with these young guys either. Bring one up and let him pitch for a couple months – good or bad – but not ugly.

And for next year, Hughes and Kennedy will have a year under their belt and you can replace Mussina (and probably Pettitte) with one or two more young guys. Then Wang would be the oldest starting pitcher at 29.

After pitching in the majors this year maybe Kennedy, Rasner or Hughes next year will be our James Shields or Scott Olsen.

by thejobarules on May 12, 2008 5:14 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs