Time for Sabathia?

by LateInningRelief on May 1, 2008 10:18 AM EDT Comment 30 comments

Now that criticism of the front office is no longer tantamount to giving aid and comfort to the enemy, can we finally have a real discussion on our reliance on the Trinity?

There's been a lot of hazy thoughts on what package the Yankees ultimately left on the table for Santana, but I believe Pfisty mentioned that the last demand the Twins made was IPK + Horne or Marquez + Another Prospect. As I recall (and my memory is not entirely clear on this, so correct me if I'm wrong), Hank was for the deal, Hal and Cash were against it, largely because of the need to then swing a huge contract. Bottom line: If Boston wasn't a real stalking horse, the Hal and Cash did not want to give up both solid prospects AND a gargantuan contract.

I understand that 4 weeks do not in any way indicate whether the long-term decision to forego Santana was right or wrong. But if we're evaluating stretching out Ohlendorf and hailing the 2nd coming of Rasner, things, uh, ain't going so well.

Was this avoidable? I sure think so. I'm the last person anybody would want evaluating prospects, but I am enough of a student of history to think the odds were long that two legitimate rookies (IPK and Joba) and the youngest starter in MLB (Hughes) could power this team to any real standing this year. I believe I am also in the minority in thinking that Joba is going to have a rockier transition to the rotation than most of us think. And I remain dubious that all three are going to be real aces period.

Yeah, yeah, you say. Water under the dam. Case closed. Santana's a Met. Hold the line, and they'll turn it around. Don't panic.

Well, not so fast. Because there's a big fella in Cleveland whose likely going to be in another uniform by the trading deadline. And I think it should be pinstripes.

Thoughts?

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You know I was right there with

you at the beginning of this season. I thought that Sabbathia would be wearing pinstripes next opening day. But I am starting to doubt that from what I have heard him say in the past couple weeks. Seems like the guy really would like to stay in Cleveland.

Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.

by Edwantsacracker on May 1, 2008 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Are you sure?

Seems like Cleveland thinks they might be able to resign him, and that he might want to stay. Even if they don’t and he doesn’t, do you really think they’ll trade him if they’re in the thick of it for the Central?

by bfriley76 on May 1, 2008 10:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, their getting into the thick of it

in the Central is predicated on their making the same sort of turnaround the Yankees need to make. And that’s just as competitive a division as the East. I think Sabathia’s going to stay or go their based on where the Indians are in July.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on May 1, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LIR

Melky was always part of the trade discussion, and while the Twins made a big deal of liking Elsberry over Melk, for the 2008 Yanks a Matsui-Damon-Abreu outfield is a huge defensive downgrade (as we were all reminded Tuesday). So it’s the money + Melky + some pitching.

I never expected the Trinity to be dominant this early, though I also didn’t think that two out of three of them would be this bad.

To pick up on your larger point, I’m keeping an eye on several pitchers on non-contenders. A guy like Edwin Jackson, who is arbitration eligible at the end of the season, or Kevin Millwood might be just what the doctor ordered at the deadline. You’re absolutely right, if the kids keep struggling they’re going to go get somebody.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2008 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If the Rays...

...would trade us someone within the division, I’d rather have James Shields. Or how about that Matsui-Lincecum trade? Or Zack Greinke or Brian Bannister?

"If you lived in my grandfather's house...and you wanted to eat, you had to be a Yankees fan." --Joe Biden

by SenorSwanky on May 1, 2008 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I know

It ain’t likely, but it gives me something to keep an eye on. I was just throwing Jackson’s name out there, and now that I spend half a second to think about it makes no sense since what they want is more pitching, and first year arb isn’t time to cut bait yet.

My point is, someone is going to be looking to clear salary space/ improve the farm system, and the Yanks figure to be in the mix.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Melky was always part of the Santana trade

For years we were screaming to stop trading the farm team for superstars and when they dig in their heels and do EXACTLY what we said to do, we’re not bitching because we don’t like growing pains. We all said oh we’ll sit through a rebuilding 2008 and now we’re going SCREW THIS bring me a big name.

I’m liking Yankee fans less and less these days.

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on May 1, 2008 11:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

They act like

it was Johan for Hughes straight up. As much as I like Hughes’ potential I would have made that deal in a second.

But when you throw in the everyday CF and another starter, plus the hefty contract to be doled out, its tons less attractive.

My fear is the brothers Stein will over-react now and give a Santana-like deal to a guy a lot less talented.

Its very important that Hughes comes back and pitches well, ditto Kennedy. Otherwise, its Cashman’s neck.

"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death

by matthaggs on May 1, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hang on,

I don’t recall the precise package that Pfisty said the Yankees turned down, but I remember vividly thinking that, if it were true, the Yankees were indeed foolish for turning it down. I remember this so vividly because, of course, I agreed with Pfisty, which was memorable in and of itself. And I actually said something like, yeah, you’re right; if he turned that down, Cashman should get canned.

It was not my intention to re-hash that deal, though. My point is that the Yankees should never have relied on the Trinity for a significant portion of their rotation. It’s not a question of being spoiled, it’s a question of sanity. Too much pressure on the kids ain’t healthy for their development, and whatever the Marlins did with young arms to win the Series, they didn’t play in the NY market. Their success was a revelation, not an expectation.

I don’t view shopping around for a veteran arm hitting the panic button, but finally doing what should have been done awhile ago.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on May 1, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We don't really know what was offered at the end

One of the rumors was the twins came back and said Hughes didn’t need to be a part of it. Of course one of the reports was that they would settle for Wang and IPK, which isn’t what we want at all. Another report was that they wante IPK Melky, and a few other prospects.

Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.

by Edwantsacracker on May 1, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

After Santana was a Met, some rumors circulated that the Twins made a last minute call to the Yanks saying Marquez-Horne-Somebody. It’s all rumor and speculation, and no one in either front office ever confirmed it, even off the record.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2008 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cliff Lee

Remember there was talk last season of going after him in the offseason? Man, if only we had. Who’d’ve thunk he and the other Santana-Ervin-would be among the most dominant pitchers in baseball right now?

"If you lived in my grandfather's house...and you wanted to eat, you had to be a Yankees fan." --Joe Biden

by SenorSwanky on May 1, 2008 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's a long season

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just re-listened to the M&MD Cashman interview

he had back on 3/11. You can listen to the entire interview here.

Cashman said definitively that the Twins called him at the last minute and offered two deals for Santana:

Hughes, Melky, and two other top minor leaguers

Wang, Kennedy, and Melky

Regardless of what has happened the past month, there’s not a chance in hell I would have made either of those deals. All that talk about a proposal being Kennedy, Horne or Marquez, and another prospect is pure BS.

I’m still firmly on the Hughes bandwagon and Kennedy will figure things out as well. And they will be better for it down the road.

by anaconda on May 1, 2008 3:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Time will tell

Clearly, you’re in good company. The Yankee brass and a lot of baseball people felt the same way about a deal w/ the Twins. I hope Hughes develops into a stud. I would love to be wrong about the need for a veteran. But I would’ve taken the first option you mention.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on May 1, 2008 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Hughes

It’s far too early to give up on Hughes. Bad month or not, this kid has the tools to be a winner in this league. 21 yr old kids are going to struggle at this level – it’s inevitable. Verlander might be one of the few young arms that essentially began his career mowing down hitters from Day 1.

Frankly, I get nauseated when fellow Yankee fans feel some sense of entitlement and this team has to win now now now now now and get their collective panties in a bind when they aren’t playing well. This team has spoiled us rotten for the past 13 seasons and it shows because so many of them overreact during a difficult stretch. If last season taught us anything, it’s that this team is resilient and has plenty of talent to overcome a slow start.

Now, let me be clear, I’m not referring to you specifically. I know you were in favor of the Santana deal last offseason so you do not apply with this specific argument. But, it amazes me to see how many “fans” who favored keeping the kids now want to second guess the move only a month into the season. It’s ridiculous.

I’m hesitant to give any pitcher $100M+ contracts. I like that Sabathia is a horse (in more ways than one), but his size and weight are a big red flag for me.

by anaconda on May 1, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not giving up on Hughes

Not at all. And I don’t want to seem like, um, Bixby. But now that he-who-shall-remain-nameless is gone, I feel okay having a reasonable critique of the FO, so long as it is wrapped in a proactive course. Which is: Don’t over-compensate for years of front-loading aging stars and suddenly become top heavy with kids. Let’s start looking for a reasonable veteran…

Everybody points to the first years for Maddux, Glavine et al, to demonstrate that Hughes is in reasonable company. He very well may be. But I doubt that they were booed within month 1 of their first full season in the majors. And they certainly weren’t dangled and then taken out of a deal for the best pitching free agent in a decade. The reality is this is New York. It’s got to be good. And the way this thing has been handled has a decent chance of crushing Phil Hughes for a bit.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on May 1, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re:

First off, let me say that I commend you for the last couple of days provoking dialog. Let’s face it, that’s what these FanPosts are for whether I agree with someone’s opinion or not. Kudos to you for provoking some thought and critiquing the FO is perfectly legit.

I’ve said before, I’m ambivalent about Cashman. There’s quite a few moves I didn’t like at all and have turned out to be busts. But I think he’s done some good things too, specifically, the youth movement. And you already know what I think of Hank.

Sadly, it looks like Hughes is going to be out for awhile with his broken rib. Not good.

by anaconda on May 1, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

for the research.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I tend to step over the line as far as

conspiracy theories are concerned. But here is mine. The Twins never intended to give the Yankees nor the Red Sox Johan. They merely used them both as pawns to get the best deal from a third party. Our beloved cross-town rivals in the “National League.”

Think about it: Dealing him to either one of these clubs would put either team over the top. Leaving Minnesota left hung out to dry and unable to compete within the American League for years to come. Thoughts?

by bronxbound on May 1, 2008 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh I agree

It’s not a conspiracy, so much as a sound decision. If you could guarantee that your team wouldn’t face the best pitcher in the league in the next 7 years, wouldn’t you do it? The only questions was, could you get the Sox or the Yanks to give up enough that it’s worth facing Santana a couple of times a season plus (hopefully) the playoffs? I was surprised that the Dodgers never got more involved, especially after losing out on Cabrera.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re:

I don’t think that’s conspiratorial at all. I don’t think MIN wanted to be in the business of making one of the two MLB superpowers an even stronger team. Using them to drive up his price was also part of the strategy – although that ultimately didn’t happen in the deal to the Mets.

Also, there are a lot of GMs would much rather trade their star player to the opposite league so they are less likely to come back to bite them in the future.

by anaconda on May 1, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Need to finally respond to all this....

If you guys think that you are going to be able to trade for a James Shields or Edwin Jackson from Tampa, Zack Greinke from KC or even C.C. Sabathia – you’re nuts.
Do you really think that the other teams are going to give their young pitchers because the Yankees now want and need them?
Those teams have struggled through seasons with Greinke (5-17 in 2005) and Jackson (5-15 in 2007) and both those guys are still only 24! You think now that Hank comescalling, those teams are going to unload good, young pitching? As George Costanza said during one Seinfeld episode to Jerry, “Where do you get the ego?”
And who wants Cliff Lee now? Everybody would love to have him. Think the Indians are going to trade him now? Duh, NO. Think the Indians now are going to try harder to sign Sabathia now that he, Carmona and Lee make a formidable top three? YES. CC is not going anywhere. More players are staying with their teams in a better environment than NY. Do you think all this booing garbage doesn’t get reported around the league? No way Sabathia comes to NY. Why put up with that stuff when you can be on a better team in Cleveland with less day to day scrutiny?
Good, young pitching is the biggest commodity in baseball and thinking that the Yankees can go out and get anyone they want is borderline stupid.
Ervin Santana is pitching real well for the Angels, as is Joe Saunders. Both are 5-0 this season, but both have given the Angels headaches in past years.
Tampa Bay does not have a starting pitcher over 26 and they seem to be doing pretty well. Last check in the standings showed them two games ahead of the Yankees.
And this is not even including Scott Kazmir! Another of their young starters, Andy Sonnastine, is 4-1 this season with a 4.42 ERA. But, last year’s he was bombed in 12 of his 22 starts and his ERA was never below 5.14 and was 6.35 after his 13th start. All those guys mentioned: Jackson, Shields, Ervin Santana, Cliff Lee, and Greinke, even Joe Saunders could have been had at one time. But those teams that currently have them have put their time into the ups and downs that young pitchers can give a team. Those teams will not give up on that type of young talent now that these pitchers have shown they can win.
But, guaranteed if the Yankees trade Phil Hughes or Ian Kennedy now to another team (say a stupid trade like Hughes, Kennedy and Austin Jackson for Joe Blanton), then those young guys the Yankees trade will become the Greinke’s and Edwin Jackson’s of next year or 2010.
To me it is OK to go with Hughes and Kennedy and lose this year than to make the Wild Card and get tossed again in the ALDS. All good young pitchers have to go through problems before they succeed. That 22 year old whiz kid in Cincinnati, Johnny Cueto, has gotten bombed since his terrific opening start.
Yankees fans need patience to allow these kids to pitch and stop all the whining over no trade for Johan Santana. Who cares what was offered? It’s over.
The Yankees have made their bed – now the Yanks have to sleep in it.
Do you want to continue the old ways of overpaid talent or start to go with the youth?
More teams are unwilling to pay big FA $$$ and are beginning to develop their own talent, be patient with them, then pay long term deals for the best of those players.
Perfect examples are the Diamondbacks, Rockies, Brewers and now Tampa Bay.
The Yankees need to follow suit.

by thejobarules on May 1, 2008 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Doug Drabek ...

Scott McGregor, Jim Deshaies, Bob Tewksbury, Jake Westbrook are just a few pitchers who I believe we gave up on too soon. None were superstars, but all have had their moments. I think we need to relax and allow Phil of the future to find himself.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on May 1, 2008 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Millwood?

With Hughes going on the shelf for a couple months, Kennedy struggling and Mussina is… Mussina, should the Yankees pursue Kevin Millwood? He is carrying a 3.86 era with a 1.58 WHIP. He committed to an off season conditioning program and is pitching much better than last year.

Max Ramirez 2008 Texas Rangers ROY

by RangerMad on May 1, 2008 9:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't call

a 1.58WHIP “much better,” but if he could be had for money I’d take a flier.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2008 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If the money is right ...

I think I’d give him a look.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on May 2, 2008 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Millwood makes...

$12 million per year and is signed thru 2009 with a club option for 2010. Is Millwood worth almost $24 million just to try and save some face and further hinder the youth movement?
Let the kids pitch. Good or bad, win or lose.

by thejobarules on May 2, 2008 2:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Also

its worth mentioning that Millwood stinks.

"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death

by matthaggs on May 2, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ummm, why would Cleveland ever trade C.C.

The Tribe is one of the three best teams in the league (even if they haven’t played like it yet). C.C. ends the year in Cleveland regardless of contract status.

by stusviews on May 3, 2008 8:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs