IPK, HAWKINS, FARNSWORTH
by andyroth on Apr 5, 2008 4:05 AM EDT
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PrintIPK GRADE: F His curveball was awful, although I know he has a much better one than he threw tonight but the big problem as far as being a high quality pitcher is his fastball. At 86 MPH and little movement you're going to pay too often for bad location.
Hawkins is just plain awful. Where is this damn sinker that Girardi and Cashman talked about after the signing. It doesn't exist. All he does is throw straight, flat fastballs. No surprise the best the worst GM in baseball could do was to waste 3.75 million on a pitcher who has been washed up for three years. For the person here who said he is a serviceable pitcher who will soak up innings must've really meant it was going to be raining runs when Hawkins takes the mound. And it was Girardi who recommended Hawkins to the Yankees. And it was Girardi who said he expected good things from Mussina and Farsnworth this year. He was stupid to go out on a limb like that considering the pitchers he was dealing with. He could've just as easily said about Mussina that he wasn't fully healthy last year and I expect more life on his ball this season. As for Farnsworth, he could've said I really liked his stuff when I had him in Chicago and I just think he needs to build his confidence back up.
And last but not least Mr. Farnsworth. When are some people here going to realize he has nothing between the ears and will never be good. Anybody want to stick their neck out on him here with Ronster?
It's the same old bottom line. As long as Cash is the GM, the championship droughts will continue. It's really difficult to win a title when you have the worst GM in the game.
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DBSW?
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
Too soon to pass judgement yet
If the same thing is happening at the end of April, I'll agree with you. One game - well, two for Hawkins - doesn't give us a broad enough sample from which to reach any conclusion. Except for Farnsworth, who we all know sucks. Nobody will defend him, or Cashman for the lousy signing. He'll be gone after this year. But until then, we all must deal.
Hawkins might be like Viz was last year - awful at the start, but reliable later on. Time will tell.
IPK is bound to get knocked around, like every pitcher that's ever played the game has at various times in their careers. If it happens consistently, then again I'll agree. If it only happens once or twice this season, then you're just whining.
Hawkins has been bad for three straight years
and he is 35. There isn't going to be some miracle turnaround when you have no stuff and the non-existence of his supposed newfound sinker at the end of last season. The time for Hawkins has been over for a long time but I understand it's tough for people to agree with me here when I'm right plus the rosy optimism here.
No
I agree with you about Hawkins and Farnsworth. It's just your pessimistic attitude that I hate and your gloating over bad outings. That is what I hate and don't want to appear in the same camp as you on the rest of it. And Ronster is right...this site is for Yankee fans and you're not one. We're not blind or stupid but we tend to take a more balanced view than you.
I don't like to admit it when I agree with you because I find you loathsome in general and don't really want to encourage your diatribes and negativity. And saying Farnsworth and Hawkins suck makes you a master of obvious. Not a brilliant mind who analyzes things in a way that makes the rest of us go, "Hey wow." Nope. You state the obvious most of the time. Big deal.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
We are not alone
I was running late Saturday afternoon, trying to get ready to go to the game, and I was listening to the Mad Dog on WFAN.
Lo and behold, who should call in but AndyRoth!!!!!! I almost fell out of my chair.
AR went into his greatest hits: Mussina washed up, Hawkins horrible signing, Cashman # 30 out of the 30 GM's in baseball etc...etc....
Not even the biggest Yankee-hater of them all, Russo, would agree with AR. He acknowledged the Hawkins signing was bad, but said overall that Cashman was a good man who had done a good job.
Thought you all would appreciate that.
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
Wow
When even Chris Russo (king of wrong) disagrees with you, you know you're off the charts wrong.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Read this and maybe you'll learn something
you don't know how the media works in this town. Guys like Russo will be politically correct so they don't piss Cashman off to the point where he doesn't want to come on their show . He actually came close to doing it and had he not backed off on Cashman it would've happened. If you search youtube and type in Chris Russo Brian Cashman you'll find an interview where Russo was totally trashing the Farnsorth and Jaret signings. It was right after the Bobby Abreu deal and he was basically making fun of Cashman, because Cashman said he wouldn't have done the deal if Cory Lidle had not been included. Russo thought that was ridiculous because he didn't lIke Lidle as a pitcher.
By the way
don't you think it's a little strange that he goes to the extreme of calling Cashman a good man. Plus I can't tell you how many times Russo and Francessa said it's hard to defend Cashman's record when it comes to free agent pitching signings, yet have never even mentioned that maybe it's time for a change of GM's? I can guarantee you if it was an out of town GM with the same track record they would've been calling for his firing along time ago.
M & MD
Those guys suck. I would never listen to them if they didn’t have decent guests from time to time because they aren't exactly the brightest bulbs on the chandelier. They don't know anything about the kids in the Minors and are often completely out of touch with the hardcore fans.
These are the same guys who spent all last week talking about Joba's fist pumps. It was nauseating. It’s one thing to talk about the issue the day after Opening Day, but this was an issue they talked about all week. That issue wasn’t worth three days of ranting.
I’ll say one thing, they are a lot like you - they focus too much on this season and this season only and don’t comprehend the big picture. They are checkers players, not chess players. They don’t adapt well to new strategies.
The funniest thing about them is that talk smack about Cashman and Girardi and tell the audience how they are really going to hammer them on specific issues before their guest appearance. When it’s time to do the interview, they tone it down and act like pussy cats.
I’ll say it again, those guys suck. 75% of the verbiage that comes out of their mouths is utterly worthless and uninformative.
Thanks for at least painting an accurate picture
on M & MD and their politcal correctness when it comes to Cashman. As far as looking at the big picture I have my eye on that a lot more than you think. I think Cashman's decision to try to develop young pitching came too late and the other pieces won't be there to win a World Championship. Posada, Damon, Matsui, and Jeter will be a year older next year. Who will be in right field and 1B next season. Who will be getting the big outs in the 6th, and more specifically the 7th and 8th this year and next year once Joba moves into the rotation? The Yankees don't have any position players in the minors that will be ready to contribute in a big way next season. And I can trust Cashman to make the wrong moves to try to fortify this team in their weakest areas as he did with signing Hawkins and not signing an experienced lefty for the bullpen. I'd rather have Traber and let's say a Ron Mahay than Hawkins.
We'll see
I don't know what the team is going to do regarding 1B or RF next season.
They could sign a stopgap to fill RF until Austin Jackson is ready. They could do the same with 1B until Juan Miranda is ready or Jesus Montero (who is a catcher right now, but may end up at 1B) gets an opportunity. Of course, they could decide to sign Teixeira to a long term deal. It remains to be seen, but the free agent crop is much better than it was last offseason.
I'm not as worried about the position players because the name of the game is still pitching. Your favorite pitchers (Moose, Farnsworth, and Hawkins) will all be gone after this season and likely replaced by Joba and two more young arms in the pen. Sabathia is also a guy they will go after hard.
As far as I'm concerned, If the Yankees continue to strengthen the pitching staff and rid themselves of overpaid dead weight, they will be in good shape next season regardless of their offseason decisions at 1B and RF.
RF
A stop gap free agent, Abreu on a one or two year deal, or a phenomenal season for either Jose Tabata or Austin Jackson to make the big leagues.
If Duncan has a good season he could fit nicely in either spot.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I know
I remember when it happened, and I cheered for Cashman. Russo is a whiner (it excites the fans and keeps the phones ringing).
Of course the media kisses the ass of the important people- you don't think it only happens in sports do you?
I agree Cashman has made plenty of mistakes, but who has been doing their job half as long as he has and had nearly his record of success? The team has never played a meaningless game during his tenure. There are plenty of ways to screw up a successful team- ask the Braves, the Dodgers, the 2006 Red Sox. Cashman has avoided any major blunders in the last 3 years while preparing the farm system to lead the Yanks back to the promised land.
I'm not going to criticize that.
And for what it's worth- I love flipping on M&MD when they've got the Baseball Encyclopedia open and they're breaking down the old players. They compared Willie Mays to Joe D. a couple Sunday's ago, it was a treat.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
I disagree about Cashman not making major mistakes
Kei Igawa for $46M was a major mistake. And what about Pavano? Also I talked about this once before that he cost the team a bundle of money by not negotiating with Mariano and Posada before entering their free agent seasons. There's no doubt in my mind that because of their rescpective ages, he thought they're might be some slippage, escpecially at Posada's age at such a demanding position and he could low-ball them. Rivera stated time and time again that he only wanted to pitch two more seasons becuase it would the final one at the old Stadium and the first at the new one. So if they negotiated then it would've been only a two year deal. And if they negotiated with Posada when he didn't have them over a barrell they could've signed him for less than four years. Do you really think at 35 Posada wouldn't have signed a two year deal for $26M before the season. Even three years at $39M they would've saved $13M on Posada and could've saved $15M on Rivera. That's at least $28M dollars.
And back to Japan for a second, where was Cashman when it came to Okajima? And let's see how Kuo and Kobayashi do this season, especially Kuo who is a left hander.
Most everyone on PA would have ...
signed Pavano, and I've ever understood the Yankees refusal to negotiate with their stars like Bernie, Jorge, and Mo. As for Igawa, he was a knee-jerk to the Sux signing Dice-K. I think we've been burned enough in Japan. I'd be surprised if we venture over the pond again.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
It's very easy to understand
Cashsman doesn't learn from his mistakes. If he would've been a keen negotiator with Posada and Rivera he would've saved a bundle in addition to how much comes off the books at the end of the season. They would've been in a much better position financially where they could've pulled the trigger on the Santana deal.
That's great
I'd like to hear that aroth snippet on a WFAN podcast.
I thought aroth stopped rooting for this team? Why would he post so many rabid diaries/FanPosts and call NY talk shows if he doesn't like the team any longer?
Because aroth wants
Cashman fired and a competent GM brought in so he can go back to rooting for the Yankees.
How can you
not be excited about the direction this team is headed in??? I don't get it.
All these things you're talking about happened years ago, except Hawkins, and his deal is a one-year deal for chump change. He is a spot holder until some of these kids are ready. I think Ohlendorf and Bruney have already passed him on the depth chart, and there are more young guys on the way.
The two guys you complain about the most, Farnsworth and Mussina, will not be here next year.
I know you'd rather have Santana, but Wang is off to a great start, using more of his pitches, and watching Hughes pitch is appointment television for me. Ditto for Joba when he gets his chance to start. And Kennedy will be a solid major league pitcher. The Yanks could have the best rotation in baseball as early as next season.
You harp on all of the lousy moves Cash has made, but never bother to bring up all the good young players on the team and just about ready to join the team. This is a good time to be a Bombers fan. If you really do like this team, I don't see how you can be so negative about this organization's prospects.
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
exactly
His hatred of Cashman has corroded everything he thinks and says. He says he won't root for the Yankees so long as Cashman is GM. Just that statement alone says what a tool he is. A true fan lives and dies with their team whether the organization is making the right moves or not. I hated, HATED, the Randy Johnson signing (I know this was the Boss and not Cash). I was angry about it for weeks. And that's just some of them. But I would still be a Yankee fan even if they continued with the faded superstar signings over building the farm team. But they're not. And Cashman is doing a great job with the farm and protecting it against silly trades. But if you truly hate the man, you're never going to give him his due.
Although I've disagreed with Cash on a lot of things, you have to give him his due with the kids. Something froth is unwilling or unable to do. And that's not a Yankee fan. Sorry.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
I'm thrilled ...
I couldn't be happier. We are winning without really hitting. Hiccups aside, our pitching has been pretty solid so far. Of course that can all change--especially considering growing pains with IPK, Joba, Hughes, Ohlendorf and others, but they are all so young--no 35 year old washed up arms holding down the pen!
Sure we have Farnsworth and Hawkins, but I'm hoping Farnzie can pull it together. I may be wrong, and if I am I'll readily admit it. As for Hawkins, I wouldn't have signed him and I certainly wouldn't have given him #21.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
he's getting all those Paul O'Neill catcalls
when he comes out.
If he was pitching well, they might stop.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
I see a change in numbers
He was a fool to request #21. It should have gone to Hughes, Joba or IPK. To give that number to someone not in the family fold yet was a bad call.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Farnsy will be Farsny
He'll probably mow people down his next outing, then give up a 3-run HR the next. There's something wrong with that guy upstairs - no change in mechanics or approach will help him. He needs therapy.
I'm willing to bet Hawkins will at least be a decent 7th inning guy down the road. Yes, he's old and will never get his ERA below 2.00 again, but he might have a shot at being solid in the middle part of the season. We'll see how he is at the end of this month. I say give him time to shake things out.
Just give me a response based on some fact
that you're willing to bet Hawkins will be a decent 7th inning guy down the road? He's been bad for three straight years and in his first two appearances he showed absolutely nothing as far as his stuff. I'd love to have the opportunity to bet a lot of money that Hawkins will be a failure.
Okay, here...
His three-year averages....
57.3IP, 33K, 18BB, 3.92 ERA, 1.38 WHIP
Not bad, not good - just decent.
You took a 3 year average to sugar coat his performance
and still a 3.92 ERA for a reliever is poor. But let's look at the REAL picture:
2005 2-8, 9 blown saves, 3.83 ERA
2006 4.48 ERA and blew all 4 save opportunities
2007 3.42 ERA pitcing in the NL, 0-5 in save opportunities
2005-2007 K/BB ratio about 1.8
And
those numbers are right on par with The Viz the last three years, which supports my hypothesis that Hawkins might follow a similar tract this year that Viz did last year - start off bad, work out the kinks and settle into being a serviceable 7th inning guy.
who cares?
Who cares if LaTroy Hawkins is wearing 21? Didn't Nettles wear Maris' number and Chambliss wore Rizzuto's? Another thing is, it is early in the season let the man prove himself.
I'm not being sarcastic or critical
but you don't know how the media works in this town. Guys like Russo will be politically correct so they don't piss Cashman off to the point where he doesn't want to come on their show . He actually came close to doing it and had he not backed off on Cashman it would've happened. If you search youtube and type in Chris Russo Brian Cashman you'll find an interview where Russo was totally trashing the Farnsorth and Jaret signings. It was right after the Bobby Abreu deal and he was basically making fun of Cashman, because Cashman said he wouldn't have done the deal if Cory Lidle had not been included. Russo thought that was ridiculous because he didn't lIke Lidle as a pitcher.
Here's the main thing, Roth
You start a lot of posts like the one above: "You don't know how the media works in the town" and then proceed to state something (which, incidentally, most of us already do know) as if it were handed down to you on stone tablets.
Of course we know that a lot of sportswriters are PC. Here are a few other things we already know:
Moose is on his final blow, Hawkins is no Nelson, Giambi will get injured (already is), the Trinity will each get shelled royally this season, Santana will be an even more heartbreaking no go because he plays cross town, Girardi will make a couple of questionable calls, Farnsworth will suck when it counts...etc., etc.
...hopefully you get the point. We actually have debated a lot of these issues in some depth over the off-season. It seems rare, however, for you to join in other's posts, so maybe your impression is we're uninformed rah rah types. The opposite is true. We are all hugely aware that this is a transitional year and could very well be real rocky. It's not inconceivable that the Bombers could finish behind the Sox, Rays and Jays this year. But we have largely signed on to the organization's focus on developing young talent. And we're hugely enthusiastic about the potential crop of homegrown Yankees to rival those responsible for our last dynasty.
You can be as negative as you want about the team's direction. If you want to change the general tone of your exchanges (and I'm not sure you do), just table the "I'm great, you suck" routine.
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Apr 6, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Nicely done
I'm beginning to think he has two New York teams mixed up.
If you swapped Cashman out of all of his posts for Isiah Thomas, and if you swapped Farnsworth out of his posts for Eddy Curry, then everything he is saying would make perfect sense.
Maybe he thinks this is a Knicks blog. It really is hard to believe we are talking about the same team sometimes, if not all the time.
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
By the way
don't you think it's a little strange that he goes to the extreme of calling Cashman a good man. Plus I can't tell you how many times Russo and Francessa said it's hard to defend Cashman's record when it comes to free agent pitching signings, yet have never even mentioned that maybe it's time for a change of GM's? I can guarantee you if it was an out of town GM with the same track record they would've been calling for his firing along time ago.
No
because they recognize two things:
1) the goal is to reach the postseason and be lucky enough to win 3 of 5, 4 of 7 and 4 of 7; and
2) Cashman has completely reversed the direction of the franchise in the last 3 years while still making the postseason each year.
It's hard to defend Cash's record because it's hard to know which deals he wanted and which were forced upon him.
In the last 3 years, he chose Kyle Farnsworth over Tom Gordon (who has been injured and never close to as good as he was in NY), passed on Barry Zito, signed Wright and Igawa, kept Miguel Cairo and Wil Nieves around far too long, stole Bobby Abreu from the Phillies, got useful parts for the useless and irreparable Randy Johnson, and snagged legitimate prospects for an outfielder the entire planet knew was going to cause nothing but trouble (Sheffield). And rebuilt the farm system.
My evaluation of Cashman is this: he is a shrewd trader, but mediocre in the free agent market (because every agent wants an extra dollar from the Yankees?) He puts a lot of faith and value in his farm system; this is both a strength (Trinity and [working on a name for the bullpen gang]) and it has been a weakness (Nieves, Phillips). As the farm system improves (BA ranked the Yanks in the bottom 5 of organizations in 2005, and in the top 5 in 2008) we'll be under less pressure to sign the next big free agent, bring the budget under control, and have more trading chips to play with.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Reversed the direction
You know I'm not a huge Cashman guy, but one of the things that turned me around was discovering that he was revamping and changing direction while still trying to keep the Yankees competitive over the last couple of years. Coupled with some heavy contract woes (Pavano, Wright, Giambi, Farnsworth--granted they were his responsibility), but he managed to succeed. No we didn't win the WS, but we were in the mix. That's okay for me.
Putting the focus on youth and not caving to what I'm sure is monolithic pressure says alot to my about Cashman. To be top five is an incredible turnaround that should be praised.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
I'm elated that we're both in agreement that
Cashman was a moron to give $3.75M to a washed up Hawkins, who happened to be their only free agent signing when they knew they needed to significantly upgrade the bullpen. By the way, compliments will get you nowhere with me :)
See
then you push it a little too negative. I'm not ready to call Hawkins "washed up." He's certainly a waste of money because he's likely to be less effective than the Yankees other options, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't be a major piece for a lesser team.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Who cares if he could be a major piece for another team?
which wouldn't happen anyway. And not to see he's washed up when you have a three year track record plus he has no stuff just continues to show me how many people wear rose colored glasses here or you're not very good at evaluating pitchers and I don't mean this in any mean spirited way. Not to be able to see that this guy washed up is amazing to me.
The thing is
I grew up a Knicks fan and I am completely disgusted with the franchise at this moment in time. I don't watch games, I don't read about them. I act as if they don't exist. I don't spend all my time spewing vitriolic garbage about them. I just don't get hating anyone or anything that much that I would waste energy on it. Yet alone spew it at people who disagree with me and think I'm an a-hole. Life is too short to spend it hating people and trying to convince the unconvinced world that your hatred is justified.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
I don't spend a lot of time hating on you
It's a fairly small amount of the time in my life. Believe me, I'd never call into a radio show to say I hate Froth or write a base post about it. You're just not that special.
I'm also not trying to rant at you every other day. If you left I would be fine and never give you another thought. You come on here looking for it and are obsessed with Brian Cashman. That's crazy. That was my point. I don't go to Knicks blogs and just start ranting about the team. I have better things to do. You come looking for it.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
Me thinks ...
you have a false sense of how important you are. You really aren't.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Talk about the pot calling the tea kettle black
You think because of your experience as a pitcher and coach that you know how to evaluate pitchers better than anybody here and the truth is you haven't shown me a thing. I'll forever remember you for linking Gibson, Feller, and Farnsworth together.
Dude ...
Not once have I every elevated myself over anyone else on PA. That's not what I'm about, and it's certainly not the motivation of others, here. It may be yours--to your detriment. Frankly, I think I do evaluate pitchers pretty well. But everyone makes mistakes. I've certainly made my share and will continue to do so. You learn and move on.
As for misquoting me time and time and time and time again, it gets old. Journalism 101 should have taught you not to misquote--but then I forget you worked for a hack sports station.
Finally, I don't have to show you anything. I think if you realized the same thing for yourself, your life might go much smoother. Angst isn't a good thing to carry around ... it'll kill you.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
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