Mussina, Hawkins...one word...UGLY
by andyroth on Apr 3, 2008 1:13 AM EDT
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PrintThe Moose looked like the washed up pitcher he was last year. A mid 80's fastball isn't going to get it done on this level. And tonight he faced a bad lineup. It'll be ugly again like last season when he gave up 6+ runs in nine of his starts. Gee, I wonder where they're going to get a fifth starter from. I forgot, Cash has his $46M dollar bust waiting in the wings in Scranton. As for Mr. Hawkins where was this sinker he supposedly developed last season. I didn't see one damn pitch that resembled one. All I saw was a bunch of straight, flat fastballs. Oh well, just add his name to the long list of failed relievers the pathetic GM has brought in.
In the case of Moose I gave you fair warning of his demise:
by andyroth on May 1, 2007 12:51 AM EDT
Mike Mussina's return this week will improve the Yankee's rotation but don't look for big results from the The Moose this season. Age seems to be catching up with Mussina as he continues to break down each year. Also, his fastball now tops out in the high 80's making it awfully tough to have a high level of success..
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andyroth...one word....
Nah, too easy.
I'm ignoring aroth and just posting general Mussina comments:
Moose was decent. He got beat by Vernon Wells and Alex Rios, two damn good hitters.
There will be nights when he'll be worse than that, and night when he'll be better. Burnett made him look worse than he really was. If he pitches like that every time out, I'd bet the Yanks would win more times than they'd lose.
Like Tom Glavine, Moose needs an ump with a liberal strike zone to be really effective. On the nights he gets the calls on balls a bit off the plate he can still be a very good pitcher. Last night's ump was very erratic I thought.
With the way Rios has handled the Yanks, I was surprised Joe G. let Hawkins pitch to him with first base open. I would have gone after Wells there.
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
Tom Glavine is a control, finesse pitcher
so how can you compare him to Moose who relied on having a low 90's fastball as part of his repertoire to be a high level pitcher? You're expecting Moose to pitch well throwing in the mid 80's and hope he gets an ump with a liberal strike zone every game? I'm really surprised based on some of your past writings that you come back with that sort of reply. Once again he was very bad last season with the same stuff he exhibited last night. You have to have pretty bad stuff to have NINE starts in which you give up 6 or more runs...By the way, you, along with everybody else that responded to this post had nothing to say about Hawkins. You want to come back with the usual reply of "it's just one game?", or maybe you'll let me know if you really think this guy could be a bust?
sigh
First, check the numbers - Mike Mussina has walked less people than Glavine has (by a lot) in just about every single season over the course of their careers while pitching in a vastly superior league offensively speaking. So it is safe to say that Mussina is and always has been a control pitcher. Mussina has never been one to throw his fastball by people, he relies on pinpoint location of all of his pitches. Now more than ever. He was successful with this approach just two seasons ago, so its not like he's incapable of pitching effectively with a sub-90's fastball. Check his '06 stats, he wasn't throwing 92 then either.
Second, only you could find something illogical with my stating that a pitcher would be helped if he had a more liberal strike zone to work with. This especially applies to Moose, who lets borderline pitches that don't go his way affect him too much. If Moose gets strike three on his borderline pitch to Rios, then the inning ends and there is no 2 run home run for Wells.
Third, you act as though everyone here trumpeted the signing of Hawkins as the answer to all of our prayers. It was a one year deal for a serviceable relief pitcher who will soak up innings, and in most cases enter games that the Yanks are already losing. The prevailing attitude here about his signing was, "at least he's not expensive and we'll pick up a draft pick for letting Vizcaino go."
If I were retarded as you, but as positive as you are negative, I would say something like, "Did you see Ohlendorf last night? His pitches were DEVASTATING. He's is definitely going to be able to fill Joba's shoes. I TOLD YOU you idiots. How could you doubt him?" That's how stupid you sound with your negativity after one night.
By the way, how did Wang do against Halliday the other night? Where are all your post game statements about his performance smart guy?????
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
And how many more strikeouts did Mussina
have than Glavine. You're crazy for comparing these two pitchers. There styles are nothing alike. And to have to rely on the umpire to help Moose's performance is ridiculous. The pitch to Rios was borderline to a biased Yankee fan whle Moose got a called strike three on one batter which was ridiculous. A sub-90's fastball that is 85 as opposed to 88 is a huge difference. Time will tell on who's right but I have complete confidence that he's washed up. By the way, Girardi talked about Moose pitching more inside this year, and if anything he was scared to do that the entire night, living mostly on the outside of the plate.
As for Ohlendorf, he did look good last night and he does have life on his ball, but to say he is DEFINITELY going to be able to fill Joba's shoes, once again, is ridiculous. As for Hawkins, he is not a serviceable pitcher, and wasn't signed to soak up innings.
And finally Mr. Wang. I actually wasn't impressed. Too many hittable pitches that a good lineup would've taken advantage of. I DO NOT like him as a number one. He's too much of a contact pitcher and if he doesn't develop a quality second pitch I wouldn't trust him in the postseason to be my number one or even a 2. And let's see when the day comes that he's even nearly effective on the road as he is at the Stadium. He has plenty to prove there still.
Oh, and ...
Glavine didn't meltdown when Atlanta brought in Questec?
Gimme a break DB! Maddux, Glavine and Mazzone all had cows when they weren't getting the calls 2-3" off the plate. Every pitcher relies on the umpire to a certain extent. Mussina struggled in part because the umpire wasn't consistent. I realize talking pitching to you is like talking pitching to my German Shorthaired Pointer, but generally speaking a pitcher uses the first inning of two to find the umpire's strike zone. Mussina was still searching for it in the 4th inning. That's not his fault.
Wang looked solid. I could already see the influence of Eiland on his mechanics. Yes, he does need a compliment pitch as I've said before--something like a cutter away or in, or even a hard darting slider. It will come.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
You're a moron
when it comes to pitchers despite what your stupid resume is. The point is Mussina relied on his fastball much more than Glavine and Maddux. His fastball and knuckle curve were his out pitches. Yes he had great control but he didn't have to paint the corners as much as someone like Glavine did. From baseballlibrary.com:
Mike Mussina
An ace in an era dominated by hitting, Mussina spent a decade fronting the Baltimore Orioles starting rotation before jumping ship to don Yankee pinstripes. A hybrid of a control and a power pitcher, he could blow a mid-90s fastball through a hitter’s wheelhouse as easily as he could drop his patented knuckle-curveball on the outside corner.
I guess my memory was a little off. Mussina had a MID-90'S FASTBALL during his peak years with Baltimore. To put Glavine and Maddux in with Mussina in terms of style is almost as bad as you bringing Feller and Gibson into your Farnsworth argument. Your knowledge is pathetic.
And let me know when Wang is going to start pitching like an All-Star on the road.
All I'm saying is
Late in his career, if Glavine doesn't get that extra inch or two on the corners, he gets rocked. It's not about strikeouts, it's about getting ahead in the count and keeping the ball as far away from the center of the plate as possible.
Mussina has better control of his pitches than Glavine does. If he gets an ump with a wide zone, he could absolutely use that to his advantage, regardless of how fast the pitch is.
Why is that so difficult to understand? Never mind, I forgot who I was talking to.
Your point about the non-strike the Rios and the strike to a mystery batter you didn't name only proves the point that last night's umpire was very inconsistent, and unless you can deal like Burnett you're gonna have a difficult time as a pitcher.
I know the Ohlendorf statement is ridiculous, it was as ridiculously positive as your statements are ridiculously negative. Get it ????
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
You just don't get it
Mussina relied on his velocity when he was a successful pitcher MUCH MORE than Glavine. And as it turns out Glavine's first year with the Mets was the end of his career as a top-flight pitcher. Qustec or no Questec his better days were way behind him. And by the way, Mussina was basically scared to pitch inside last night and I can't blame him with the crap he was throwing, but that's one of the things Girardi wanted him to do this season.
Somebody doesn't get it.
Whether he relied on his velocity more than Glavine or not is irrelevant, both pitchers rely heavily on the location of their pitches, now more than ever.
A generous ump greatly assists both pitchers at this stage in their careers, and is more necessary for their success than it would be for someone who can throw 95 plus. That is how he and Glavine are similar today, and that is the point I am making.
I don't know wtf you're talking about.
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
Pitchers who have to rely on power for a good deal of their success
and then completely lose it don't usually pitch well just like Mussina. He's washed up. Come back to me by June 1 when he'll be out of the rotation.
If
he averages 5.2 innings and 3 earned runs each time out, then you will be wrong. In other words, if the outing you have so roundly criticized is an average Mussina outing, he will have a solid season. I know you don't consider Toronto's lineup formidable, but it is middle of the pack - Mussina will face better lineups and worse lineups this year.
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
Think about it....
Moose's numbers from last night compute to a 4.76 ERA. I think most Yankee fans would gladly take that and 150+ IP for the season.
Well, I know I certainly would.
3 RUNS IN 5.2 INNINGS
EQUALS A 4.77 ERA WHICH IS FAR FROM A SOLIDE ERA, BUT YOU JUST DON'T GET IT THAT HE HAS NOTHING IN THE TANK. YOU'LL JUST HAVE TO LEARN THE HARD WAY.
It would
keep him in the rotation the whole season caps lock. And the Yankees would win a lot more of those games than they lost.
I didn't say it would be a solid era, I said it would be a solid season for Mussina or any #4 or 5 starter in the American league.
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
League average last season was
4.47; 4.45 in 2006.
If you figure the #5 has to be as far below average as the #1 is above it, a 4.77 ERA would slot Moose between a 3 and a 4. Ironically, 4.76 was Pavano's ERA last season- ERA+ of 96. Damn near average. I say a 3.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Glavine
While I would consider Glavine more of a finesse guy now, I would never say he was a control pitcher. Only twice has he ever cracked the top-10 in least walks allowed. Furthermore, when he came up, he sported a 94 mph fastball.
I actually think the comparison between Glavine and Moose is reasonable. Sure there are subtle differences--notably Glavine seems more accomplished than Moose in the role of finesse pitcher. Moose is a heartattack--because I don't think he has anything left. He's getting by on gile and trickery, and simply doesn't have the moxy that Glavine, Maddux, and even Moyer possess.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
aroth
I just want to know one thing aroth.... if the yankees do well this year, or Mussina isn't as bad as last year, or if the bullpen is far better than expected, or if this young pitchers pitch above expectations.... if ANY of these things happen would you ever be man enough to admit that you were wrong?
You talk about how you used to be a Yankees fan, and Cashman and Co.'s incompetence drove you away. If any of these things prove successful and the Yankees make it to the post-season (again), would you shutup? What is it going to take? Making the playoffs? Winning the ALDS? Making it to the WS? Winning the WS? What is it going to take?
Maybe you are just another spoiled Yankees fan who can only accept winning if it involves a WS. The consecutive seasons into the postseason doesn't matter to you at all?
Please, just tell me what the Yankees have to do on the field for you to either a) admit you were wrong or b) shut the fuck up and never come back.
"It's great to be young and a Yankee"
I'll say one thing for aroth
Nobody generates or provokes more of a response from the PA community than he does.
This is why ...
We can't ban the DB. It's like shooting fish in a barrell with an M16. It's blogging nirvana whenever he posts.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Can we at least add
dunce cap in his avatar?
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Apr 3, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
What about ...
a black rain cloud overhead?
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Black rain cloud for his
persistent pessimism, but dunce cap for his Groundhog Day-like repeat of the same scene over and over again.
Froth: Blah blah blah You Suck Yankees Suck I'm Great Blah Blah Blah
Everybody Else: GO AWAY SHUT UP DOUCHEBAG GO TAKE YOUR MEDS
Week to two-week pause while the meds start working, then fade again. And then...
Froth: Blah blah blah You Suck Yankees Suck I'm Great Blah Blah Blah
Everybody Else: GO AWAY SHUT UP DOUCHEBAG GO TAKE YOUR MEDS
I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque
by LateInningRelief on Apr 3, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm guessing
A. Froth is giddy as hell Moose lost last night, because now he gets to tell us, "I told you so." He fails to see that this was only one game (the second of 162), and if anything it was the lack of offense, not Moose's performance, that lost the game. Losing 5-2 to a pretty good team the second game of the year is no cause for doom and gloom. But Froth needed an example to prove his belabored point, so there you go.
Doesn't matter if Moose winds up with 12-15 wins, or the Yanks take the East, Froth will always find something to bitch about, because, well, he is a bitch.
You are SOOOOO smart
My 12 year old realized Mussina was done last year.
"Fair warning of his demise" . You forecasted nothing, you schmuck. Just about everyone on PA knows that Mussina is running on fumes.
Frankly, I'm not happy with the Mussina situation. I'm admittedly somewhat concerned, but we are one start into the new season, and I believe he will straighten out some. It's you I'm concerned most about.
I remember in my playing days there was a beat writer named Jackie Post who would sniff around the team. He was somewhat smarmy and shifty, and no one liked him because he wasn't really a fan. He was an angry kid with a pen who was looking to find dirt. I see a great deal of Jackie Post in you.
You aren't really a fan. You revel in failure and watching others fall. Then you pump yourself up when it happens. What a horrible way to live, dude.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Make up your mind
On the one hand you say your 12 year old son realized Mussina was done and then you write you believe he will straighten out. You just contradicted yourself. By the way your son realized he was done when he got to see Mussina pitch during the season. I wrote before he ever took the mound not to expect big things from him. That's a BIG difference...Also found it interesting that nobody, including you, had any comments about what I wrote about Hawkins. Are you going to come back with the same response that seems to be so easy for everybody to say here. It's just one game? Or maybe you realized the guy showed NOTHING last night. As far as being a fan, I was just as big a Yankee fan as anybody here. I was devastated when they lost game 7 in Arizona. Outside of any personal losses I suffered in my life, that loss was one of the toughest to take at the time. I wanted them to win that series more than any because of 9/11 and that my father, also a huge Yankee fan had died earlier that summer. I will always regret that loss. In 2001, I bought a Friday night ticket plan with my cousin which we still have but I don't go anymore because I refuse to contribute to the bottom line of this team. It's bad enough Cashman still has his job, now we have to put up with 2 idiots in Hank and Hal having so much input and power. It would be no different had I been a lifelong Knicks fan. I would've stopped rooting for them too because of the worst owner in sports in James Dolan. I don't revel in failure, but I can't put up with stupidity, especially when it continues to get rewarded as in Cashman's case.
DBSW?
You just contradicted yourself. "In 2001, I bought Friday night ticket plan with my cousin which we still have but I don't go anymore because I refuse to contribute to the bottom line of this team." Hey Jackass, when you bought the plan you contributed to the bottom line. I'm no math major, but the fact that you continue to have the plan tells me you've been a contributing member of the Evil Empire since at least 2001.
No one on PA was cartwheeling with the signing of Hawkins. Not one. So why would anyone respond to your tired doom and gloom act.
I will respond to Ohlendorf who was stellar. His mechanics were repeatable; his movement was hellacious, and if he continues, he will quickly establish himself as THE go-to guy in the clutch. On another note, I thought Farnsworthless looked improved. I will continue to put my neck out on this guy by suggesting he will have a solid year.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
wait
Froth is saying that the Yankees broke his heart and he will never forgive them for that.
He's a jilted lover, basically. And like an old, bitter hag he wants to turn everyone against his former love. And is angry that they still think the former love is pretty great.
It all makes sense now.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
The loss I was referring to
was the death of my mother at age 13, so go shove your analysis up your ass.
I'm sure that she is just hiding.
Everything looks nicer when you win. The girls are prettier. The cigars taste better. The trees are greener. --Billy Martin
You were talking about the loss in 2001
You never mentioned your mother's death. It's not my fault you write in a fashion that no one knows what the hell you are talking about.
You talked about being "devastated" in 2001. We all were. I live in Manhattan. I was born and raised in NYC. 2001 was a tough year to take and the end of the Series didn't make it any better. And you turned away from the Yankees then because they didn't bring it home. Most of us just stayed to support the team. You turned on them like a jilted lover and you don't like that I called you on that. You are a bitter old hag and you act like it, spewing venom in the direction of the one who hurt you instead of sucking it up, manning up and moving on. I would NEVER be so obsessed with a person or an organization that I hated so. The anger and hate would eat me up as it obviously had you.
A lot of us (including me) had mothers who died when they were teenagers. We don't use that as an excuse to go around stomping on other people and acting like complete assholes and calling everyone morons. I've had lots of losses including my parents at a young age and I don't use that as an excuse to act like a complete and utter jerkoff.
Your behavior here is reprehensible and you just rag on a team you do not like and a GM you hate.
So screw you and your wha wha wha....I don't care if it's about baseball or your mother...you are ridiculous.
And I'm not kidding.
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
I walked away from the team after last season
not after 2001. If you read my first ever post here I said nothing about not rooting for the Yanks anymore. Yes, I did stop rooting for the team because of the GM who should've had his ass fired years ago. And you're full of shit as far as who has dished out most of the name calling here. And I really don't give a shit what a blind fool like you says.
You are wrong, Roth
You are the most negative influence on this blog--including name calling. Your tone, defensiveness and disrespect for everyone who differs from you is indeed reprehensible.
Bxgrl is not the problem here.
We are all familiar with your rhetoric, and it is more than clear that you aren't a fan. You've said it yourself that you've "stop[ped] rooting for the team." Well then don't visit PA. Go somewhere else. Post on the Knick blog or something. PA is for Yankees fans. If you can't answer affirmative to that simple prequisite, please refrain from posting. Thx
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Please
count up all the names you have called people on here and please count up all the names I have called people. Then please let know who has called people more names.
Second "I said nothing about not rooting for the Yanks anymore. Yes, I did stop rooting for the team..."
So I must be psychic since you never said anything about it but you did stop rooting for them.
I'm not the one who causes all the posters on here to spew venom. You are. I'm not the one full of hatred coming on here to bait posters and be the voice of negativity. You are. And the blind fool? Well that would be...............
"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel
Don't stick that neck out too far on Farnsworth
otherwise we'll be talking about you in the past tense. And what Farnsworth were you looking at. He gave up 2 hits in one inning and there was nothing special about the way he was throwing. You're just being stubborn because you looked like such an A-hole for bringing up Gibson and Feller in your Farnsworth defense. As far as Ohlendorf's "repeatable mechanics," are you trying to show off your pitching coach jargon. Mel Stottlemyre was a solid major league pitcher and was an awful pitching coach. You think your AAU resume is going to impress me.
Dumb ass.
I defended your sorry ass yesterday--today I'm not so sure. Do you really want to get into a shouting match with me or anyone else on PA? Are you that pathetic?
Listen, I want Farnsworth to do well. I'm glad he was successful on his first night out with a new manager. So what he gave up a couple of hits. He made a strong pitch to strikeout the last batter he faced in a pressure situation. I'll tell you something else. I may not like Cashman, but I want Cashman to make good calls and good signs. You don't.
My proof is that never once have I heard you once praise Cashman for hiring Girardi and greenlighting Dave Eiland--who is a high quality pitching coach.
The difference between you and everyone else on PA is that you don't want Farnsworth or anyone else to do well. You relish in failure. It's how you make yourself feel big. You truly are a pathetic piece of crap. You aren't a fan at all. . . Instead, you harp on the same old, tired song. Now you've added a new chorus--my mommy died, 9/11 was tough for me... Yeah, yeah, whatever.
As for showing off my pitching jargon, whatever. If you knew anything at all about pitching, you'd know it's all about balance and muscle memory. Last season there were times Ohlendorf was getting ahead of himself. Other times his mechanics appeared to subtly change from pitch to pitch (the same could be said for Farnzie and Wang). I didn't see that in Ohlendorf in his first outing. Again, you look at a pitch who gives up a couple of hits in an inning and quickly write him off as sucking. WRONG. Someone who understands the game looks beyond the boxscore.
What's your point about Mel? I contend he was an exceptional pitcher during the Yankees darkest days. If he were on a decent club during his years, we'd be talking about him in the same breath as some of the 60s top pitchers. He wasn't a great pitching coach.
Guidry was a solid MLB pitcher who occasionally bordered on great. But he was a terrible pitching coach as well.
Ted Williams, and Michael Jordan were arguably the best at their sports--yet on a management and coaching level they were subpar. What's your point?
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
Hawkins is just more proof
of how this team has the worst GM in baseball. A total waste of $3.75M. And how much further are you going to stick out that dumb ass neck of yours on Farnsworth because I hear the woodpeckers are coming?
If you can't put up with stupidity
how do you wake up in the morning?
Please don't tell me you're comparing the Yankees braintrust to the Knicks butt-trust.
"Just when they think they got all the answers, I change the questions."
-- Roddy Piper
You know
I know what you mean about 2001. I still think about that bottom of the ninth. It was my senior year of high school- I was on the phone with my girlfriend (she'd called to find out why I hadn't called her yet) and I made her turn the game on to watch the Yankees win. When that bloop went over Jeter's head I just stopped talking. She said, "So that's it? It's just over?"
It seemed like if the Yankees could have won thing would have turned out alright- the way things were before terrorists and war, before I could even have found Afghanistan on a map.
But Andy, you and I responded to that disappointment by doing the opposite thing: I threw myself into baseball. When I was home from college the next summer I was hanging out with that same girl, and I flipped on the tv to see how the All-Star game was going, and she said, "When did you get obsessed? You never used to be like that." Baseball is my catharsis.
I don't agree with everything the Yankees do (have you ever heard my rant against the sacrifice bunt?) but I think they the people in charge are among the best in baseball (post Cashman-coup). You don't have to agree, but you have to accept that radiating pessimism and trying to prove that the rest of us know nothing about the game doesn't do much to enhance your points.
"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."
Nice post ... but you are wasting your time
Jscape, well said, but sadly I fear we are all wasting our time on this lost soul.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
I didn't stop rooting for them after the 2001 World Series
I was fed up after last year and finally had enough of Cashman's ineptitude and the fact he still had his job, despite three consecutive first round eliminations when his payroll dwarfs most of his competition in the game. If they win the World Series this year I'll look like a fool, but the way I see it, they'll need a new fifth starter soon and Hank said after the opening game that Joba will in the rotation at some point. If that's the case, they will not have a bullpen capable of winning a World Series.
You're still not looking at the big picture
It's not just about winning a World Series in 2008. It's about building this team into a championship caliber for the next 5-7 years. Joba in the rotation makes the latter much more likely.
You are too focused on this year and this year alone. That's why your argument falls short.
Agreed.
I'm not interested in a quick hit. The great Yankees teams in the past were great for 3, 4, 5, or more years. Taking the youth approach--coupled with patience as we go through growing pains is a recipe for success.
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
OMG!!!
You ARE right!!!
He's a jilted lover with no place to go.
Should we feel sorry for the poor bastard?
Should we chip in for counseling?
Maybe a six-pack of Jager will do the trick.
froth ... dude, I didn't know. But you need to move on. It's happened to the best of us. Really. It's just that some can move on and others need medication. I think you need the medication.
We are all here (well most of us) to help. Even though I'm a libertarian, I still have alittle compassion for poor, dumb bastards who can't overcome a broken heart.
Bxgrl is the new millenium's Wonder Woman. She broke the freakin code!
Now, thank God froth is on the road to recovery. Can a Pfisty sighting be far off?
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will
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