'Just Say No!' Pitching to Manny with first base open

by John Amato on Apr 12, 2008 10:25 PM EDT

Quick take:

I know it's only April. Calm down John and relax. Go put on the Masters highlights and chill out. Sorry, no can do. "You never let the best hitter on the opposing team beat you." Easy, right? Nothing else needs to be said. You would think Joe Girardi understands that most basic principle in all of baseball...

OK, I like Girardi, I really do, but please, get me a half a dozen cocktails because that was a little league managing decision i witnessed today. Hey Joe, haven't you been watching any Boston vs Yankee games in the last five years? Manny is one of the greatest right handed hitters in the last forty years and a notorious Yankee killer. He had just hit a HR off of Mussina in the fourth to give Boston the early lead. What were you thinking letting Mussina pitch to him with men on second and third and two outs and a one run lead?

Mussina, who resembles Jamie Moyer these days did his job really well today in Fenway. He got the Yanks to the sixth and only gave up one run. That's the kind of performance we all pray to get out of Mussina. Keep the Yanks close through five or six innings and then turn it over to the pen. At this point in the game, Girardi had to walk Manny and pitch to Youkilis with the bases loaded, two out and the Yankees in the lead, 2-1. I might have pulled Mike right at that time, but I had no problem giving him the shot with the bases loaded because he had pitched so well.

Joe comes out to the mound. Good, I say, he's going to order the walk. The conference breaks up and Girardi does the unthinkable. He tells Mussina to go after Manny! And on the first pitch----booooom---double up the gap in right center, two runs score and Boston grabs the lead and the game.

And why did Bruney throw an 0-2 fastball right down the heart of the plate to Youkilis? Nevermind, I'm still steamed about Manny....

Now for FOX:

Never once did Joe Buck or Tim McCarver ever bring up the biggest decision in the game and analyze it. I know Manny hit Mussina's first pitch, but you would think the lead announcing team for the big FOX weekend of baseball would have spent a few minutes going over Girardi's pivotal decision of the game. Is it because they like him? He did once work for FOX doing the Saturday games last year, but that would seem too petty. For whatever reason, they blew it off completely. Nice coverage.

Also, FOX cut away to NASCAR before Robinson Cano's AB ended in Los Angeles in the top of the ninth against Paplebon.. I saw him foul off a pitch when he had two strikes with two outs and then they cut to the race. Thanks guys...

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Comments

Agree

You gotta take your chances with Youkilis there.

Buck mentioned about 10 times that the game was going be switched to FX.

FOX messed by not running a crawl across the screen for people who were watching without sound.

"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death

by matthaggs on Apr 12, 2008 10:48 PM EDT 0 recs

I would have pitched

to Manny. (I just wrote this in Geno's FanPost) Youkillis' eye is too good to ask someone to pitch to him with the bases loaded- and how often have we seen a guy not be able to find the strike zone after an IBB. Only way I might have done it differently would have been to go to Joba.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Apr 13, 2008 12:42 AM EDT up 0 recs

disagree

The worst that could have happened if he cant find the strike zone with Youkillis is that the game is tied. We almost saw the worst case scenario with Manny only standing on second base. I would feel much better about this lose if Youkillis had hit a grand slam.

This decision seemed tailor made. There is no other spot in that part of the lineup when this decision is this easy. If its Papi up with first base open, youve got to pitch to him. When I saw Molina sit down behind the plate I thought, I guess they are going the "unintentional, intentional walk" route. Wow. Hopefully Girardi let Mussina talk him into pitching to Manny. That would at least be better than Girardi actually thinking it was a good idea.

by seanp23 on Apr 13, 2008 9:32 AM EDT up 0 recs

According to Lohud that is exactly what happened.

The reason he went out to the mound was he wanted to talk to Mussina and ask him who he wanted to face, Manny or Youk. Mussina told him that he didn't care. Girardi told him to go ahead and go after him, but that if he fell behind on the count to go ahead and walk him.

Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.

by Edwantsacracker on Apr 13, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up 0 recs

I agree with John

I wouldn't want to pitch to Youk with the bases loaded. And since Manny's BA was in the .260s with one home run on the season where Youk's average is in the .320s I full support going after Manny on this one.

Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.

by Edwantsacracker on Apr 13, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up 0 recs

Im sorry

But Manny Ramirez is Manny Ramirez. I dont care what his BA is(especially this early in the year, that stat is particularly useless), he absolutely obliterated a baseball earlier that day, doubling his HR total. And, If Manny started the day at .260, he raised his average 17 points in one game. Its not like Mussina owned him all day and just gave up a lucky hit.

David Ortiz is batting .037, does that mean youd rather pitch to him than Dustin Pedroia because hes only batting .271? Like I said before, I would much rather have Kevin Youkillis beat me than Manny Ramirez. Thats not a knock on Youkillis really, its just that he has not proven himself to be arguably the best hitter of our time, as opposed to the guy hitting in front of him.

by seanp23 on Apr 13, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up 0 recs

The thing is

even if you walk Manny, you still have to get out Youkilis (a .337/.435/.508 hitter with men on). You're gambling either way, and as it worked out Bruney couldn't get Youkilis, either.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Apr 13, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up 0 recs

The difference is Manny is going to the HoF

and Youkilis isn't. He's a good hitter too but he's not one of the biggest Yankee killers of all time who had just hit a bomb about 9 miles the previous time at bat.

I think pitching to Youkilis in that situation was a no-brainer.

by anaconda on Apr 13, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up 0 recs

Ask yourself this question, though:

If you are that worried about Youkillis hitting with runners in scoring position, if he was up with two men on rather than Manny, would you walk him? I do not think you are saying that Youkillis is a better hitter than Manny because thats just silly, but thats essentially what you are saying by not walking Manny because you are worried about Youkillis. Walking Manny to get to Youkillis still leaves two guys in scoring position and Id rather pitch to Youkillis than Manny in that situation.

As far as Bruney, by the time he came in the cat was already out of the bag so we dont know what would have happened. He might not even have come in at that point, Joba probably would have been the better option at that point.

by seanp23 on Apr 13, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up 0 recs

My point

I guess, is that I wouldn't walk either guy.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Apr 13, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up 0 recs

I couldn't believe it

Cut away in the middle of an AB for cars going in circles? I've always hated both Fox (especially the "news") and NASCAR. My hatred for them deepened today.

by docgonzo on Apr 13, 2008 12:11 AM EDT 0 recs

Total agreement

Where the hell was the crawl to let us know of the switch? Furthermore, at least keep the game on in Boston and NY... No offense to the Nascar fans out there, but who the hell really would care if you missed the first two laps or so anyway? There's still a thousand or so left turns left in the race.

I hope Fox catches hell for this one. Freakin' Heidi game all over again.

by mrljdavid on Apr 13, 2008 8:36 AM EDT up 0 recs

I couldn't have said it any better

Girardi's move was pathetic and Buck and McCarver were both politically silent. McCarver is too smart not to even debate the matter.

by andyroth on Apr 13, 2008 3:13 AM EDT 0 recs

McCarver

Is not too smart for anything.

by seanp23 on Apr 13, 2008 9:33 AM EDT up 0 recs

I think that

Girardi did the right thing. I questioned it yesterday because I thought he told him to pitch to him. If he went out and asked him what he wanted to and Moose said he didn't care, Girardi was right to say go after him but if you fall behind, walk him. Who wants to pitch to Youkalis with bases loaded? It was a tough call. If Mussina said something other than "I don't care." or told Girardi he wanted to walk him and Girardi said pitch to him, then I would have had a problem.

The way it went down was the right thing. If Moose felt like "Let me get this guy out and end this thing." then all well and good. If he thought "I'll have to pitch to Youkalis with the bases loaded. Screw that, I'll take my chances with Manny." all well and good. It was a tough call and it could have gone either way. Had it gone right, everyone would be saying it was brilliant. But it went wrong. Such is life.

yesterday I was hopping mad but after getting 24 hours to think about it and to find out what happened on the mound, it's okay with me.

The thing is that the optimal scenario is that this decision should have never had to be made but we do not live in a perfect world when it is Red Sox/Yankee baseball.

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on Apr 13, 2008 12:33 PM EDT 0 recs

actually i disagree

in the heat of the moment, of course any ML pitcher is gonna say- "let me get this guy..."

i said at the time and i still believe girardi should have taken the decision out of his hands. walk manny. i know youks with the bases full is no picnic, but manny had already homered and past history speaks for itself.

who the hell knows... it's april and it just counts as one game- is the bottom line i guess. hoping for the best for phil tonight, and hope we smack dice-k around a little.

You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth. -Mickey Mantle

by NumberSeven on Apr 13, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up 0 recs

I thought this yesterday

but I've changed my mind. Woman's perogative and all that. :)

I think it's easy to say the walk Manny/pitch to Youk would have worked. I don't know. I think Girardi should have either told him to walk Manny and pulled him or done what he did.

Mussina mindset is part of managing Moose. To walk him and pull him, esp if the reliever did not get the job done, would have f'd with Moose big time. More than a lot of pitchers.

It wasn't an easy thing to play and in retrospect I think it was right. I think that no matter what decision was made, if it didn't go perfectly someone would have been screaming and that includes walk Manny and pitch to Youk.

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on Apr 13, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up 0 recs

The more I think about

the right move is to go to Joba. Even if it means Mo for 4 outs, or Joba-Bruney-Mo. That's the big moment of the game- if you're an advocate of Joba in the pen the reason he is there is to get the big out in the high leverage moment, to not use him in that spot is to have wasted him.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Apr 13, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

you are probably right

joba's the guy out there right now-- he needs to be guy in there in pivotal spots. you don't just save the game in the eight/ ninth inning.

and i agree bxgrl- it may have been a no win situation. i just hate being being beaten time and again by that nappy jackass.

You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth. -Mickey Mantle

by NumberSeven on Apr 13, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up 0 recs

Do you mean

Joba against Manny or Joba against Youkilis?

I don't think there was enough time for Joba to be ready for Manny. But either way I agree with you Joba is the right call.

The thing that bothers me is that Girardi played it halfway. Either pitch to the guy, or walk him.

If you read his comments, and Mussina's comments, the decision they agreed upon was not to "go after" Manny, but to try to get him to swing at a bad pitch, and if that didn't work then walk him.

Mussina's "bad pitch" had way too much of the place and Manny whacked it. Ptiching to him, especially with Mussina, was a horrible idea.

And for the second time in his three starts, Moose went from a quality start to a semi-lousy one because of a pitch he threw at the 5.2 innings mark.

"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death

by matthaggs on Apr 13, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up 0 recs

Joba's warm up time

Good point. I want Joba on the mound for either situation, so I'd let Moose (very slowly, with lots of discussion with the catcher and the infield) issue an !BB to Manny so Joba has time to warm up. He should have been stretching anyway, since the plan was Moose through 6, Joba 7-8, Mo 9.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Apr 13, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up 0 recs

If thats the case

Mussina needs to get over himself, fast. He's looked ok, but if we have to put up with him serving up Moonshots so he can possibly feel good about himself, its going to be a long summer. He's not the ace of a staff anymore so lets stop babying him.

Im not blaming Moose on this one really, Joe should have known better than to let him pitch to Manny, especially after giving up that monstrous shot earlier.

by seanp23 on Apr 13, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up 0 recs

Moose looked better than ok

He was great until that pitch to Manny. I know it's easy to rip Moose in Yankeeland these days but everybody would gladly take these kinds of performances with this offense.

I don't know if Moose can keep this up, but they will win quite a few of his outings if he continues to pitch like he has in his first 3 starts.

by anaconda on Apr 13, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up 0 recs

I agree

I'm just saying, he's not Cy Young out there, lets cool it with the special "dont make mike feel bad" treatment. As an aside, I guess its because he relies much more on the corners than most, but he seems to get squeezed quite a bit more than others.

by seanp23 on Apr 13, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up 0 recs

But hey

The Sox used Beckett, Delcarmen, Okajima and Papelbon and sweated out a 4-3 game against Mussina, Bruney, and Hawkins. Even though they lost that's a bit of a positive for the Yanks.

You gotta love the way they scratched out some runs against Beckett, who had been dominant most of the day, and I don't think Okajima fools the Yanks anymore. Abreu hit a rocket off him.

And you gotta figure Papelbon is unavailble tonight, and the Yanks have Joba and Mo fully rested.

Dice K, even if he's effective (I don't think he will be), will be near 100 pitches by the 6th inning. I think the bats will come alive against him, and the Yanks will be in the Sox bullpen tonight.

I'm anxious/excited to see how Hughes will do in this environment.

"Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankees win."
-- Phil Rizzuto after hearing about the Pope's death

by matthaggs on Apr 13, 2008 3:16 PM EDT 0 recs

As I said in

Like I said in my post about Moose and a lead, it never fails. He pitches his heart out and a soon as we give him a lead he comes back out and gives it up! Check the history if you don't believe me. Thats why when they had the confrence on the mound before Manny's at bat I thought " Good Giraldi gets what Torre never did" I thought for sure they would walk Manny and then bring in Joba or Brunni to face Youkilis

by Geno56 on Apr 13, 2008 3:47 PM EDT 0 recs