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One Reason the Yanks Are Hesitant to Extend Wang


As CMW heads to his arbitration hearing today, I found this piece especially relevant to the discussing of a long term contract. Wang has made his feelings crystal clear.

David Gasko over at The Hardball Times begins to tackle the truism that high K pitchers have longer and more successful careers than low K pitchers.

(Be ye warn, there be Sabermetrics within that link. Arrrg).

What he figures out is that when we remove the best and worst pitchers (using an advanced form of WHIP that takes slugging and strikeouts into the equation to produce an ERA-like number), is that the remaining pitchers project to be equally successful even though there is a gap in their strikeout totals.

There is one major difference between the high K and the low K groups: their expected IP.

This effects Wang because these are the records of the way the pitchers have been use, and therefore, the way the pitchers have been valued. And Wang might face a similar career path: overlooked in favor of players with flashier stats.

I suspect Brian Cashman (or someone within the front office) has read Bill James' argument that high K pitchers last longer. I'm willing to bet that the reluctance to offer Wang a long term deal stems from his low K totals and his age (his 28th birthday is Opening Day) rather than from any nagging concerns about his 2004 shoulder injury or his poor performance in the playoffs. Wang (and the fans) are going to have to get used to one year deals; he's under team control until 2011 (his age 31 season).

I know I was predicting doom and gloom for Wang before the 2006 season because of his low K rates, but I've seen encouraging signs. I like that his K/9 leapt from 3.14 in 2006 to 4.70 in 2007, I like the slider he mixed in on days the sinker wasn't working, and I like that his BABIP has held steady around .292 over the last couple seasons.

But if the wheels fall off, the Yankees are in the best position to move on with no regrets.

0 recs  |  Comment 14 comments

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exception to the rule?
I think Wang is the real deal.  What he's missing in K/9 he more than makes up for in other areas.  

In '06 and '07, he ranked 63rd and 82nd in most home runs allowed.

In '06 and '07, he ranked in the top 3 in most double plays.

In '06 and '07, he ranked in the top 10 of groundball to flyball ratio.  

He also has improved his strikeout rate by a full K per 9 innings.  

So, he isn't blowing batters away, but he is keeping the ball in the park and on the ground.  While his walk rate isn't great it isn't horrendous either.  

by kuri3460 on Feb 14, 2008 10:34 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I know that Wang
isn't a Cy Young candidate (for intelligent voters) or "ace" pitcher, but he is a perfect fit for the Yankees.

We have been built these last seasons as an offensive team. All we really need is someone to keep us in the game. Wang eats up innings. He doesn't allow a ton of homeruns or big innings.

Normally you have to discount how many wins a pitcher has, but if you look at them then you understand why Wang is such a good fit for the Yankees. His sinker allows him to be more economical  and batters see fewer pitches per at bat. He goes deep into games (so we don't have to see the worst of the bullpen) and he ends up picking up the win for them.

If any of the trinity works out, I will be very glad we have Wang behind them in the rotation because we will be building the depth that we have been drooling about since the championship years.

Eleven wins in October...

by Edwantsacracker on Feb 14, 2008 10:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
Wang is not a front of the rotation guy... but he eats innings and wins more often than not (in the regular season). I'm still confused as to what the big deal over $600K is. Just get it done and get him into camp.
You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth. -Mickey Mantle

by NumberSeven on Feb 14, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

define front rotation?
because Wang has been a top 10 pitcher in the AL in both 06 and 07 in most metrics that measure overall value like VORP / Winshare ...

If top 10 pitcher in a league doesn't = front line rotation, then there's very few of those indeed.

it's pretty easy, think of a guy you think is a front line rotation starter. then seriously compare the last 2 year of that guy against Wang, I dare you to find more than 10 guys that's seriously better than Wang in both 06 and 07 in the AL

Wang in 07 finished 20th in the MLB in pitcher's VORP. 10 of them were in the AL. and the only guy that was better then him last year? 2 .

Realistically speaking, there's 2 pitcher in the AL over the last 2 year who were actually better than Wang in both season.. one of them isn't in the AL anymore (you know who) the other guy is Roy Halladay, that's IT.  (there's 3 guys in the NL that were more valuable in both year to Wang, one is a hall of famer in Smoltz, the other two probably will be in Webb and Oswalt)

Wang has his weakness, but people are SERIOUSLY underestimating his value. he IS a ACE if you define ace as one of the best pitcher in the league. which he clearly is. there's just no denieing that.

Could he be worse going foward? maybe. but it's pretty ridiculas how much people undersell his last two season.

by RollingWave on Feb 15, 2008 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

an ACE
doesn't shit the bed in the post season.
You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth. -Mickey Mantle

by NumberSeven on Feb 15, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's quite unfair
and a very simplistic argument.  

The most dominant pitchers in both leagues have failed miserably in the postseason.

Peavy, Sabathia, Carmona, and Webb all got hammered at least once last October.  Pettitte, Clemens, Maddux, and Glavine have all pitched their share of stinkers over the years.

I'm not arguing whether Wang is an "ace" or not, but a terrible postseason last year shouldn't be the only criteria.

by anaconda on Feb 15, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so the following guys aren't aces?
because they all had been bombed in the post season at some point

Roger Clemens, Gregg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Randy Johnson, Johan Santana, Jake Peavey, Pedro Martinez, CC Sabathia. Roy Oswalt.

There's about 3 guy in the game that's actually truely dominant in the playoff for their career, 3! (Schilling / Beckett / Smoltz ) that's it! so there are 3 aces in the majors? is that what your saying?

Hell. theses guys aren't aces either by that definiion. (insert the entier list of hall of fame pitcher)

by RollingWave on Feb 15, 2008 10:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Shoulder
Perhaps it's Mr. Wang's right shoulder that's also a cause for concern.

If I'm not mistaken he injured it in the minor leagues, then injured it again with the Yanks in '05 and narrowly avoided surgery.  

by matthaggs on Feb 14, 2008 11:06 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

He's a good pitcher
and he's dead sexy in that cheerleader outfit.

by kuri3460 on Feb 14, 2008 4:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

And I hate that Wang
is an average pitcher on the road and was worse than that last year and completely blew up in Game 1 in Cleveland in the opening playoff series.
Three straight seasons so far where he has proven you can't trust him away from the Stadium. They should've packaged him in a deal for Santana. By the way nobody seemed to care or make note of the fact that stupid Hank said the Twins came back to the Yankees one final time before dealing Santana to the Mets and Minnesota didn't ask for any of the Holy Trinity. You have to believe they wanted Wang and the moron brain trust turned it down.

by andyroth on Feb 14, 2008 4:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My thoughts ...
Generally, I'd agree that high K pitchers have more longevity and success. However there are notable exceptions (Kaat, Blyleven, Maddux, Glavine, Moyer), and certainly Wang can be one of those guys, but ... The latter half of last season Wang's pitches were consistently up. In fact, they were so up, I wondered if he and Igawa were sharing pitching philosophies and Kei convinced Wang to keep the ball up. In short, he was terrible. It carried over into the playoffs, and that concerned me. Unlike fastballers, Sinkerballers can lose "touch". Often it can be something mechanical--a slight change in arm slot, landing on the heal instead of the toe, lead arm is dropping, head is pulling. All those are possible reasons. However, all those I mentioned are common knowledge issues that any pitching coach would check. Did Guidry not check those things? Did he not compare tape? Who knows. If he did, and Wang's struggles aren't mechanical, then I'm concerned. That means it's physical. A blister? (Could cause him not to push through the sinker), Shoulder? Elbow? Core? I suspect it would be a combination of the blister and the shoulder. In fact, I noted a slight change in his delivery and mentioned it on PA. Could this be the issue? I don't know. I do know that he has skills, and Dave Eiland is a real pitching coach--not a beloved Yankee. There's a difference, folks. All that said, I wouldn't try to strike a long-term deal with Wang until I was certain his woes of late 2007 were in the rear-view mirror. I want to see Eiland's influence on him and see how Wang responds. I'd also be interested to see if the Yankees get him working with Neal Allen (a sinker specialist who was associated with the Yankees as late as last year. I don't know if he still is.)
"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Feb 14, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh
I liked this  headline better.
River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on Feb 14, 2008 7:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ouch....
that must've hurt.

by anaconda on Feb 14, 2008 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love that you
remembered that, and then were able to find the link again...
Eleven wins in October...

by Edwantsacracker on Feb 14, 2008 8:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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