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Around SBN: The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision

Sizing Up the Opposition (1 of 3)

One of our resident Red Sox fans, Frank Malzone, recently suggested that the Yankees'  recent acquisitions merely make the Yanks competitive with the Red Sox and Rays.

The Yanks finished 6 back of Boston and 8 behind Tampa last season.

Before I compare rotations and lineups, I wanted to check out the teams' overall performances against each other.

 

NYY v. TB 11 7
NYY v. Bos 9 9
TB v. Bos 10 8

So the three teams pretty much played each other dead even over the season; the Yanks went 20-16 against the others.  9 of those losses were save situations- if the new additions turn 2 of those losses into wins we're two games closer to the playoffs.

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Of course

the war is not won on head-to-head record. Any one who says that the Yankees have not vastly improved on a team that won 89 games last year is not being honest. On the other hand, the East might be closer than you think. To estimate how far apart the teams would be next year based on the teams as they were made up last year, it is best to look at Pythagorean record. The Yanks last year finished 4th in the AL East, the Sox first with a gap of 8 games. By more advanced Pythag the gap was bigger. All three top teams had significant injuries, that were more or less a wash (it is not useful here to make the same lists we have seen on various sites. Fans of each team will say their team’s injuries were worst).

Now, looking forward to next year, a simple way to estimate is to look at WAR as the teams are now comprised. I have not done this, but I think RJ Anderson has on DRaysBay. If I recall correctly, his conservative estimate is Yankees 94, Sox 93, Rays 90. That sounds about right to me. I would say that on paper, the Yanks are the best team in the AL East for next year, but the gap is not so large.

Given that the rest of the East is still strong, I think the odds of the Yanks finishing first are quite good, but all of the random factors that could come into play (for all contenders) will actually decide the fate of the division. For the Yankees pitching wise it will be health (Burnett, Joba, Rivera) the success of a pen that pitched a whopping 40% of the teams total innings last year. Offensively it is important to note that major players are aging (Damon, Posada, Jeter) and in the case of Posada, a decline of epic proportions has to happen for a catcher at some time. I think if the Yankees are healthy and perform up to expectations, they will be very hard to beat.

by Buzzy on Dec 25, 2008 5:03 PM EST reply actions  

you guys are so high

The yankees keep getting older stop fooling your self. Get rid of Arod and then you’ll win
and your hitting numbers wont be better. I can’t wait to see you guys crying in your beers
over not making the playoffs 2 years in a row. Then what can you buy. RED SOX 95 MFY’s 90 DRAYS 86 the sox farm system is light years a head of you deal with

by Red Sox #1 Fan on Dec 25, 2008 6:56 PM EST reply actions  

Hmm

I am a Sox fan, and a frequent poster on OTM. No one is fooling themselves but you. Be rational and stop embarrassing youself.

by Buzzy on Dec 25, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with Maddon....

I’m not a Yankees fan…but I don’t hate the Yankees either.

Maddon recently said that he’s not especially concerned about the Yankees’ offseason moves, and I would have to agree with him.

The Rays have a club with great defense and great pitching. The starting 5 will be: Shields-Kazmir-Garza-Price-X. The Yankees, despite their vaunted (and overpaid) lineup last year, scored only 15 more runs than the Rays.

There are still a lot of question marks with the starting pitching. If Burnett gets hurt, unless Joba and Hughes mature, the staff will be 1 pitcher deep.

The Sox got a bit better in the offseason; anything they do from here will be nice. They will have Masterson and Buchholz, two unproven players much like Joba/Hughes, have an opportunity to get more experience.

Don’t get me wrong, the Yankees have a very good team. However, it’s still not clear that it’s better than the other 2 clubs in the division. They got some very high profile guys. But like I said, in terms of offense, Tex is a marginal improvement over Giambi, and the Sabathia and Burnett signings were necessary to fix a broken staff.

The Yanks last year scored 62 more runs than they allowed last year. This was actually 4th in the league behind Boston (151), Toronto (104), and Tampa (103).

Like I said, the Yankees are much improved and needed to do this. But it will be hilarious if they don’t get into the playoffs or win the division next year.

I agree with Maddon however that the Rays will be more mature next year. That club has a great makeup, they are young guys that want to win. They will be a better club, and until someone beats them, they are the guys with the pennant.

by halflink123 on Dec 25, 2008 7:50 PM EST reply actions  

Much of this

is covered in my post above (eg the net runs which is what factors into pythag), but you are wrong about several things. Teix is a big upgrade over Giambi in defense alone. It is true that the Yankees were an ordinary offense last year, but that will not be the case this year. The same offense, healthier and younger, scored 960 runs in 2007. While Abreu and Giambi are a loss on offense, a healthy Posada+Swisher+Matsui+Teix>Giambi+Abreu+Molina+Melky+1/2*Matsui. A key will be health of more fragile and aging guys like Posada, Damon and Matsui(if they keep him). 900 runs seems reasonable. Further, if Burnett is healthy (a big if) and if they get a 4th starter (Petitte, say) they have a deep and talented rotation. When Joba reaches his cap they can use Hughes there and move him to the pen.

Tampa is a very young and talented team, but as I said, they are not a better team on paper than NY. (btw Price will be the 5, Sonnenstine will be the 4, and he is good and improving). The division is very strong and any one of these teams could finish 1 or 3.

by Buzzy on Dec 25, 2008 8:03 PM EST reply actions  

Yanks need Manny to be great

a few years ago, the Tigers, with great young pitching, looked like a budding dynasty. They were — on paper.

You need a special make-up — not just baseball skills — to be competitive year after year. And you need youth. Even great players decline at a certain point.

Jeter, Posada, Matsui, Damon, Wang have the right stuff in my view. But age and health undermine the core. (Mariano is a freak of nature — I’ll give you an edge there until I see something different.) Maybe Joba has it. I think even Hughes may have it.

Beckett, Lester, Pedroia, Lowell, Lowrie, Youkilis, Ortiz and, I think (lonely view) Masterson have the right stuff. But Lowrie might not have enough talent, Ortiz and Lowell may never recover fully from their injuries and age, and Beckett may go down with injuries.

In a close race, there is only one player available who undisputably has both amazing skills and ice water in his veins in the clutch. He has at least 2 years left, I think, and if you are willing to pay him for 5 years at an extravagant level, then the Yanks might get a world championship in next two years.

Going forward, thereare two main questions: who will get it done next year?

And what manager will help most by keeping the clubhouse on an even keel?

Sox have edge at manager. Young toughness in Lester, Pedroia, Lowrie, Masterson and Youkilis.

Jscape, double or nothing on the 20 push-ups as to which team finishes ahead next year?

by Frank Malzone on Dec 25, 2008 8:49 PM EST reply actions  

We don’t need Manny.
Damon-Jeter-Tex-Arod-Matsui-Posada-Cano-Nady-Melky

We’d have to trade Matsui and then drop Manny into the DH spot. The difference between Matsui’s projected .280/.360/.450 and Manny’s .300/.400/.540 isn’t worth 25 million dollars and 25 million headaches.

I’ll take you up on that bet.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Dec 26, 2008 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

can you do 40 push ups in a row?

those New Year resolutions may come in handy

by Frank Malzone on Dec 26, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

yes I agree

that any of the 3 can finish 1st or 3rd, it will be close, as it was last year. Actually I didn’t notice that the Yankees scored more than 900 runs the last 2 years before 2008.

It’s sort of tough to say where in the 800-950 run range the Yankees will be in. I know Tex is a bit better offensively and a lot better defensively than Giambi, but…if you size up the lineups and the rotation: I won’t go threw it, but the lineups are more evenly matched than people think. The Sox have a slight edge at CF, RF. The Yanks have a big edge at 3B, SS, C. And a light at 1B. But the Sox have an edge with the staff, even now.

Whatever happens, I think the fans (regardless of the team that they root for) win here because the AL east will have 3 very good teams battling it out all season.

They are 3 very good teams and the wildcard probably won’t come from the AL East because these guys will be tearing each other to shreds.

by halflink123 on Dec 25, 2008 9:05 PM EST reply actions  

also the key will be starting pitching

they can score 1100 runs, if the starting pitching isn’t there, it won’t do any good at all.

even if they get into the playoffs, they will get blown out without pitching.

true the 2006-2007 yankees scored 900+runs, but they had another common denominator: a subpar starting staff. If Cashman had focused the Yankees resources on a starting staff instead of the lineup, the Yankees might’ve been more successful.

I think they just have to be careful, still, of not being the New York Texas Rangers

by halflink123 on Dec 25, 2008 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

How

many teams have a better rotation of Sabathia, Wang, Burnett, Petitte and Joba? You miss the obvious-this is a very strong rotation, and certainly much stronger than the 2006/2007 Yankee rotations. The only issues are Burnett’s health and Joba’s innings cap/health.

by Buzzy on Dec 25, 2008 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Pettitte's not a Yankee...yet

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/122608/spo_371145771.shtml

Look, you are entitled to your opinion. It may well turn out to be a very strong rotation. I just don’t think that’s set in stone. On paper, both the Sox and the Rays appear to have a better starting staff, especially if David Price starts. There is a lot to be said about defense and deeply admire the Rays and Athletics for this reason. And the Mariners for making offseason moves to address an often overlooked aspect of the game.

Most I think would agree that the Yankees are not the best fielding team, which contributes to any pitching issues that may arise. The left side of the infield is not the greatest defensively, however Jeter and A-Rod especially are superb offensive players. The staff is definitely very good, but I’m just not sure that it’s better than the Sox or the Rays. In effect, the Yankees replaced Pettitte and Mussina, who came off a superb year, with Sabathia and Burnett. Also Wang comes back from injuries, and Hughes and Joba will be more mature.

But no team is perfect and noone will deny that the Yankees have a very, very strong club overall. They certainly will be a feared club next year and for good reason.

by halflink123 on Dec 26, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Chemistry, managing, schedules, weather, injuries, who gets hot when (individually and collectively) and who gets cold when (individually and collectively), lousy umpires, strange stomach bugs, and weirdo crap that happens within any given game.

None of these things can be factored in until the games are actually played.

But argue amongst yourselves if you must. It’s something to do in the off season.

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on Dec 25, 2008 11:52 PM EST reply actions  

the good thing about the season

is that nothing can be over-analyzed bc there’s another game in 21 hours.

by Travis G on Dec 26, 2008 4:35 PM EST reply actions  

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