Proctor and Delmon

by Travis G on Oct 13, 2008 6:00 AM EDT in News

- In shocking news, 'Everyday' Scottie Proctor will have surgery on his throwing elbow. Who saw that coming?

- Delmon Young could be available via trade, and Minny is reportedly looking for an infielder. Cano plus for Young?

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If you thought Cano

had an attitude problem I can’t wait to see what people see about Delmon Young after he is an everyday player for us. At first that type of trade seems like an actual possibility. It seems to fits both teams needs, and both players are high ceiling who had disappointing seasons.

The thing is that if Cano comes anywhere near to his first three years of production he ss a well above average 2nd baseman.

Young could be a corner outfielder for us and hit .290 with 10 homeruns like this year. But I don’t see that as being as useful as a 2nd baseman who hits about 300 with 15-20 home runs.

Cano is the superior player here. One of Cano’s big weaknesses is his OBP and his career OBP is still better than Delmon Young’s. So the idea that we would give away Robinson Cano+ for Delmon Young I think is a little ridicules. If that offer were on the table I would be saying, “Yeah Delmon Young and what?”

Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.

by Edwantsacracker on Oct 13, 2008 8:54 AM EDT 0 recs

wow

have ya gotten that attached to Robbie?

i know offense from a 2b is worth more, yet you say we could get another .290/10 year from Young. why arent you concerned we’ll get another .271/14 year from Cano?

Young’s ceiling is MUCH higher than Cano’s (he was the #1 prospect in all MLB in 2006, #1 overall pick in 2003), and is 3 years younger.

if Abreu declines arbitration (likely), it would be nice to have another RFer. an OF of Damon, Gardner/Nady is rather weak offensively. if we had Young in RF, we could move Nady to LF, Damon to CF. upgrading Melky/Gardner’s offense to Young’s is big (even if he’s just an avg hitter), nevermind the ultra-upside bat he has.
sure, Nady’s nice, but what we’ve seen is what we’ll get. Young has a chance to be a super star. it’s worth the chance to me.

by Travis G on Oct 13, 2008 7:01 PM EDT up 0 recs

There is no way

I would trade cano + for young… its young + for cano if anything.,,

Cano has proven he can hit .300, with a 120+ ops+ at the big level, what has delmon proven?

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by jbluestone on Oct 13, 2008 9:27 PM EDT up 0 recs

Cano's

career OBP is higher than Delmon Young’s and that is his biggest weakness. I am shying away from Young because I believe he has an attitude problem. Why is his second team trying to shop him around otherwise?

Crowds are won and lost and won again, but our hearts beat for the diehards.

by Edwantsacracker on Oct 13, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up 0 recs

Exactly

I think we almost have to keep Cano, because of his youth (lacking on this team) his contract, and his potential to put up similar numbers to the last 3 seasons.

by 3460kuri on Oct 13, 2008 9:07 AM EDT 0 recs

Ahhhh, no.

Delmon is ABSOUTELY no upgrade over Cano. I would only do this deal if the Twins added Kent Hrbek.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Oct 13, 2008 3:19 PM EDT 0 recs

Haha

Have to agree- position scarcity plus Cano being signed while Young will hit arb makes this a no-brainer: no.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Oct 13, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up 0 recs

woo

didn’t anyone else notice that Delmon wasn’t very good this year either?

Cano has at least been very good for two season, Delmon has yet to been good .

by RollingWave on Oct 13, 2008 11:54 PM EDT 0 recs

Delmon's also a poor fielder

Delmon’s two seasons in the majors have been replacement-level, on par with Cano’s 2008 compaign. Sure, he’s got potential, but stagnated potential should not cost Cano.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Oct 14, 2008 12:06 PM EDT 0 recs

I dont get it...

you guys aren’t comparing things right… this is delmon’s 3rd year in the league… he debuted the year after cano while he was 3 years younger… i like delmon young… it’s too bad he can’t be had for a nady(picking up some of his money)/kennedy/ + package…. oh well…

by daneptizl on Oct 14, 2008 1:20 PM EDT 0 recs

Young is the same age

as Hughes, yet no one is criticizing Hughes the way they are Young, while Young has had a better career to this point. why is that? both have uber-potential. the only reason i see is that one’s a Yankee.

by Travis G on Oct 15, 2008 12:10 AM EDT up 0 recs

Young has had a better career?

he’s been replacement level for two straight seasons. Hughes has a career 5.15 ERA, which while not anything to write home about, is better than replacement level (about 5.75 for starters). he’s also pitched in front of a crappy defense and there’s an argument that his 2008 season was influenced by the rib injury to some unknown extent.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Oct 15, 2008 10:03 AM EDT up 0 recs

Young

has OPS+ed 96 for his career, better than Hughes’ 86 ERA+. that is a better career, not to mention the fact he’s actually been healthy and had far more PT.

i understand you’re accounting for Young’s position, but it’s still not enough, especially considering health. i mean, you’re actually going to give Hughes CREDIT for being injured?

i dont know how you can say Hughes, who’s faced 460 batters with an 86 ERA+ has had a better career than Young, who has a 96 OPS+ with 1430 PAs.

(this isn’t to knock Hughes, who i think will be great one day.)

by Travis G on Oct 15, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up 0 recs

i already laid out my argument

with position and fielding, Young is replacement level. Hughes has been better than replacement level, albeit in not much playing time.

if you prefer for me to work on your scale, here you go:

Young is worth ~~10 runs per year in right -~~ that’s worth .050 points of OPS. League-average OPS in right field was .810 this year in the AL. Adjusting Young’s OPS of .740 down .050 points makes it .690. .690 divided by .810 gives a revised OPS+ of 85.

Now take Hughes, who is being compared to both starters and relievers, when relievers get an advantage of about one run of ERA by relieving. so the league-average ERA of relievers is about 5.25 on the starters’ scale instead of 4.25. weighting that 1/3 and the league-average starter ERA of 4.50 2/3 yields an effective league-average starter’s ERA of 4.75, making Hughes’ adjusted career ERA+ 4.75/5.15 = 92. Hughes has been better, when you properly consider their performances.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Oct 15, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up 0 recs

also regarding Hughes

if you look at his peripherals instead of his ERA, he’s been more impressive than a career 5.15 ERA. (weight 2007 at 2/3 and 2008 1/3 based on IP)

2007 FIP: 4.50
2007 xFIP: 4.85
2008 FIP: 4.44
2008 xFIP: 5.14

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Oct 15, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

so by your 'scale'

a below avg starter, who’s missed 5 months in two seasons, has been better than a below avg RFer who’s played nearly every game in two seasons?

perhaps by rate stats, Hughes is comparable, but certainly not when adjusting for PT.

i could understand comparing Cano to Delmon, but not Hughes. he just hasn’t played enough to warrant that. i mean, why not say 2007 Joba is the greatest pitcher ever?

(btw, Delmon has a higher LD, BB, steals, steal % than Robbie (and higher Win Shares and VORP this year) – at a younger age too. look, i like Robbie, but Delmon has a much higher upside.)

by Travis G on Oct 15, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up 0 recs

i'm defining "better" as did more to help his team win compared to a replacement-player

Delmon played full time. Hughes didn’t (there’s an understatement). It’s fair to assume that the time Hughes missed could be taken by a replacement-level player, because that’s what replacement-level is defined to be. So Delmon provided zero production beyond what they could have gotten for free (which is basically Delmon himself, minus the trade cost). Hughes provided, say, five runs of value beyond what a replacement-level starter would have provided and the rest of his missed innings are taken by a zero-level replacement starter.

In other worse, Delmon doesn’t receive any credit for all that playing time because he wasn’t performing well enough to provide any value to the Rays and Twins.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Oct 15, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up 0 recs

Delmon probably has a higher upside than Robbie

but considering Robbie’s 2006 and 2007 seasons were pretty darn good, I’d expect his median expected future performance is higher than Delmon’s. his position is much more valuable, too. by the stats i think are better, they were both replacement-level in 2008, providing zero value to their teams.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Oct 15, 2008 8:17 PM EDT up 0 recs