Torre's Awesome bullpen management

by ReLaunch on Aug 4, 2007 10:57 PM EDT Comment 23 comments

Finally, more articles calling him out on this and continuing to use people that he trusts:

WEAPONS OF MASS FARNSWORTH
The entire Stadium began chanting "Farnsworth sucks." The entire Stadium apparently understands more about Kyle Farnsworth than Joe Torre does.

Since the trading deadline, I've been writing that if, with the Yankees having restructured the 'pen, Torre continued to insist on using Farnsworth in important spots, he deserved to be summarily dismissed. Not only is it stupid, not only is it throwing away what is now a very viable shot at the Wild Card, it's flipping the bird at the front office. It's the worst kind of insubordination. Torre would rather lose on his terms than win on Cashman's.

Full Article
[editor's note, by John Amato] Please don't quote an entire article. That's a violation. Thanks!

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Gotcha John.

Just wondering though, I copied only the first half of the article (the part on Farnsworth). Is that still a violation?

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 5, 2007 9:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I am tired of this compaint.

Trite, we've heard it too many times.

Please dose anyone think Torre wants anything but to win? You'd understand what he does better if you thought he was afraid to move to "unknown" players because they might mess up and lose games.

Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical(Yogi)

by Cbeck3 on Aug 5, 2007 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'll take the unknown over the known

Torre should know by now that Farnsworth is almost guaranteed to give up runs when he's on the mound. He should be far more fearful of that.

by docgonzo on Aug 5, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that that is an overstatement

To say that Torre would rather lose his way than win is pretty retarded. However, the general point about Torre's complete inability to handle relievers is beyond debate at this point.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Aug 5, 2007 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It also

shows that Torre continues to use him in situations expecting different results. Enough of Farnsworth and Myers, there are others that can give you at least the same stuff they do.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 5, 2007 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Torre

..and I say enough of Torre and you guys who have been defending him for the last five years of loosing playoff after playoff. He has never been able to manage pitching relief (a catcher, yet!) He inherited a young, ambitious team; kept outta their way while they worked thru four years of winning. Then, when he had to really start managing - zipp! Just go back to those four loses against Boston in....., but I repeat myself!

New Hampshire Bob

by NH Bob on Aug 6, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Farnsy

isn't really Torre's fault. He didn't give him an untradeable contract.

And Torre can't stand the guy, but he can't just come out and say that about someone on his team.

He has not come into a tie game or a game that the Yankees were leading by a small margin in quite sometime. It is quite evident that Torre no longer trusts him. Did he trust him too long? Yes. But he doesn't trust him anymore.

by matthaggs on Aug 5, 2007 11:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes

But they were losing the game at the time, and he had few options left at that point.

Farns used to come in in tie games or games the Yanks were winning by a run or two.

My point is that is no longer happening, which is significant.

by matthaggs on Aug 6, 2007 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's not very realistic

I don't want to see him ever either, but I'd rather see him in a game they are losing if it means sparing someone like Vizcaino for a day.

What is Torre gonna say?

"Farnsworth sucks but we can't get rid of him so I was forced to use him."

As long as he's on the roster he's not gonna criticize him, even though Farnsworth has criticized Torre a couple of times.

What Torre says and what he does are two different things. It's obvious by his actions that he no longer depends on Farnsworth.

by matthaggs on Aug 6, 2007 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eh

If the Yanks were still 8 games under .500 I'd be cranky enough to do this all day long, but they're a couple of innings away from a three-way split of a playoff spot. I guess that's in spite of the manager though.

The only thing Bruney has done to earn the ball over Farnsworth is suck slightly less in much less pressurized situations. You have a valid argument but a poor line of defense.

by matthaggs on Aug 6, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry but no

That's a ridiculous statement about Torre.

by matthaggs on Aug 6, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup, and

it feels like I was at every one of them.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 6, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Uh huh

If the perfect manager is out there who never makes mistakes, then he should manage the Yankees. Until that time Mr. Torre is perfectly ok with me.

I can rattle off about 20 teams across every sport with superstar talent that imploded after getting off to the start the Yankees did this year. The players turned on one another, some turned on their manager, and they packed it in and looked out for their best interests.

That never happens with Joe at the helm, and it could have happened during several seasons, including this one. Managing is more than picking up a bullpen phone, especially with the ego heavy
locker room in the Bronx. And the man/men upstairs with the checkbook.

The time for bashing Torre and Cashman was at 22 wins and 30 losses.

THAT SHIP HAS SAILED. Enough already.

by matthaggs on Aug 6, 2007 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry

no need to read that whole thing.

I'm just a little reluctant to boot a Hall of Fame manager out the door for a guy who has never managed a game in his life. To each their own I guess. Citing is Hall of Fame record during is stay here falls a little short of a hand job btw.

I understand why you would be complaining when the team was losing, but to complain now is just plain idiotic.

Even pfisty's complaints have gone way down.

The team is winning just about every day. Shut up and enjoy it.

by matthaggs on Aug 6, 2007 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

"You can't figure we'd have won all of those but if we won half of them we'd only be 4 games out of first."

I wonder if you read that before you hit submit. Silly.

You give way too much credit to Zim. 99.9% of the criticism directed at Torre is for his use (or misuse) of the pitching staff. I obiviously wasn't on the bench, but I'd be willing to bet that Zim had very little to do with managing the bullpen. If you had said it's Stottlemyre that Torre needs, I might have agreed with you. Guidry is too junior a pitching coach and doesn't seem to have enough influence on Torre's admittedly occasional questionable decision-making with the arms in pen.

On the offensive side, no one manages everyday players better than Torre. He could have kept sending Damon out to CF every day but recognized and had faith in Melky's ability to handle the job (when most here were all over Melky for his lack of hitting and wanted him in Scranton). How many games has that decision won for the Yanks?

The ruined relievers you speak of:

Sturtze: sucked before he got here. Had his best years here.

Quantrill: was misused by plenty of people before he got here.

Gordon: had a history of arm trouble (see 2007).

Proctor: stunk before he got here, became a dependable pitcher.

None of these guys blame Torre. They'd do it all over again if you asked them.

And what about Stanton and Nelson, etc. Didn't they pitch all the time too? They seemed to come out of it fine.

The highly questionable playoff decisons? Name 'em, and I'll name you 10 times as many great decisions.

You've called me classless several times here. Calling Joe "Clueless Joe" at this point, after all he's done here, is as classless as it gets. A large (VERY LARGE) part of the reason you have enjoyed yourself out in the bleachers for the last ten years is due to #6. You don't have to like him, but spitting on his accomplishments here is out of line.

by matthaggs on Aug 6, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haggs!

come on! You have made good points but defending Torre's use of the bullpen with these examples is ridiculous. Its almost as bad as Cbeck saying Igawa and Farnsworth are good pitchers.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 7, 2007 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually I said Viz was good, never Farnsy

And I said Igawa had potential, which is a moderately different thing.

Get it right or shut up.

Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical(Yogi)

by Cbeck3 on Aug 7, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apparently

you have selective memory so you should shut up. Remember in April and May when people here were complaining about Farnsworth not getting 1,2,3 innings. You said who cares, its not a big deal, he is a good pitcher that gets the job done. I'm not putting words in your mouth, that is the nonsense you say.

And don't back off your nonsense about how Igawa is a good pitcher that will make a difference later in the season since he now has an almost 7 ERA.

If you want to prove that you didn't say that, go look back at the game threads from April and May. Of course I don't have selective memory.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 7, 2007 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs