Players may stay or go depending on Torre's status

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 7:07 AM EDT

Yes, its another classic from George King. This does though bring up a pretty interesting point for many of us that want Torre gone. There maybe a chance these players will not come back if Torre isn't here.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08242007/sports/yankees/split_decision_lies_ahead.htm

The man in the manager's office will have a huge impact on what the Yankees' 2008 roster will look like.

While the Yankees are involved in two races - the AL East and wild card - there is no avoiding what looms beyond this season. Joe Torre is doing a wonderful job as a lame-duck manager, and his future will have an impact on what free agents Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens will do following the World Series. Since Alex Rodriguez doesn't have the history the others do with Torre, the manager's future doesn't expect to play a role in Rodriguez' decision to opt out and become a free agent or stay.

However, it will impact what Posada does.

"I don't see myself playing for anybody else," the All-Star told The Post.

So, if Torre leaves, does that mean Posada goes, too?

"Let's see who is coming in," the catcher said.

GM Brian Cashman's stance since the start of spring training is that the focus is on 2007. That meant Torre, Rivera and Posada have to wait until after the season to see where they fit. The same went for Rodriguez, but at the All-Star break word leaked out the Yankees were willing to talk about an extension with the MVP candidate, but he shut that down quickly.

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I disagree...

Players today go for the money. If the Mets offered Jorge 5 yrs at $65MM, I'm pretty sure he would abandon the uniform and Joe. Or if Cash offered him 3 @$40MM, do you think he would say I'll sign only if Joe is extended?

Lots of people say JOe's major strength is keeping the huge egos of these huge contract players in line. Maybe. I think they love Joe because he always...always...protects his players. You almost got the feeling Moose threw a no-hitter the other night against the Angels when listening to Joe.

I do agree its time for Joe to move on. I personally think Girardi would be a great next choice...especially if you agree that bullpen management is a big need. I think Girardi would also make the tough decisions on who plays and who sits. When Joe says he is resting Matsui, he is really saying I don't want to hear Damon whine. But this is a whole other subject.

Oh those bases on balls. Can anyone here throw strikes???

by mickey07 on Aug 24, 2007 9:29 AM EDT reply actions

Can't let one player hold the franchise hostage

If the best thing for the franchise is to move in a new direction at the managerial position, then you can't allow Jorge or anyone else alter that course.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Aug 24, 2007 9:32 AM EDT reply actions

Plus

Since the successor will likely be Girardi or Mattingly, I don't see Jorge, Rivera et al having a problem playing for either one. Not that I want Torre to go obviously.

Posada to the Mets is vomit inducing. But it seems like the don't want LoDuca back, and Posada knows Willie very well. That sound you hear is his price tag going through the roof.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Does depend

Everyone has had bosses, or coaches with whom they couldn't work. I don't see the Yankees bringing in anyone who doesn't know the Yankee way, or who hasn't been groomed in the pinstripes. That said, there really isn't an issue. I agree Torre must go (before he destroys Chamberlain, Hughes and Kennedy), but they will install either Mattingly, or Girardi. My pick would be Girardi. He's got a manager of the year under his belt, and has been impressive with his insights and understanding of the game. He'd be an outstanding choice.

Bottom line: Posada stays, Rivera stays, Torre goes.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 9:54 AM EDT reply actions

Chamberlain, Hughes and Kennedy

are all starters next year. I don't see how Torre could destroy them. If anything he pulls his starters too early.

Another erroneous slam of Torre. It's hard to keep track of them all.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Do you really

think they would have the "Joba Rules" if Torre wasn't the manager?

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions

Not the point

I was responding to a post that claimed Torre would destroy the arms of three starting pitchers.

And yes, all organizations have Joba rules. Why Cashman chose to make them public is beyond me. Now the opponent knows when he is unavailable.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions

Uhh, which

organizations have the Joba rules (or something like that) for their pitchers? I do agree that its his managment more of the bullpen than starting pitching that drives me crazy.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Boston

for one is extremely careful with how they use Papelbon.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions

They are

careful with him only because he hurt his shoulder last year. They weren't careful with him before that. Also, he doesn't have strict rules set in stone that Joba has.
The only reason those rules exist is because what Torre was done with his relief pitchers.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions

That

only magnifies the fact that organizations are stupid if they don't have Joba rules for stud prospects. Maybe the Yanks learned from what happened to Paps that all managers - not just Torre - can get caught up in trying to win the pennant. It is an excellent idea to advise the manager how to use his kids that are learning new roles on the fly. Making the rules public is the only thing I object to.

They won't pitch Paps 3 days in a row, that's at least one strict rule that has been made public about him.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions

Would you ...

you let a pedophile babysit your kids? That's the way I feel about Torre and his inability to handle the Yankees pitching staff.

Frankly, I don't want him anywhere near the holy trinity next year.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions

And the award for exaggeration goes to....

Ronster!

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Aug 24, 2007 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions

Torre is now equivalent to a pedophile?

Oh Lord, that poor guy gets no respect around here. Clearly, he doesn't have the same magic he used to, but Destiny and Mystique were dispatched by Schilling, (who no matter how big an idiot he is, did manage to let the air out of the Yankee dynasty).

Torre's now like every other manager in the league: he's got to balance his veterans with his prospects, get a couple breaks and get all cylinders pumping at the right time. Let's see what happens in the next month or so.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions

A pitching pedophile

I see the posters now, "Don't let this man near your rotation!"

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions

I've never won anything ...

What an honor. Do I get a trophy, a pendant, maybe a certificate?

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions

Of course

I will have cbeck knit you something.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Aug 24, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Does nice work

I hear his dainty fingers allow him to make some really pretty patterns. I'd love it.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions

"Dainty fingers"

You only say that cause you never met the man.
I doubt he's every been refered to as dainty in his life.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Aug 24, 2007 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the dainty

was referring to his pre-menstrual levels of emotional sensitivity.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Aug 24, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions

I've heard the rumors

My wife displayed similar bouts until introduced her to a gym. Now all the misdirected hormonal rage is vented far from me.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions

And I agree that Torre won't decide it

The free agents will go where the money is & where they get the most loving. If the money's right, Posada would rather play for Girardi or Mattingly in New York than Leyland in Detroit, Cox in Atlanta, etc. Only alternative would be Willie Randolph, I'd think.

My money's on Girardi as well. I have no idea what sort of manager Mattingly would make.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions

A little extreme...

But the whole bull pen mismanagement thing was caused by Joe/Brian keeping "specialty" pitchers that just did not belong. the obvious example is Myers...you remember him...has anybody missed Myers? So if you start out with pitchers who can only do certain things, it means somebody else has to pick up the slack. Rememeber Proctor, (see Myers above). Now we are seeing a burn out/tired arm from Viz.

I've never heard any other team with strict rules on pitching/off days. I think it is specifically addressed to keep Joe from using him up.

Myth 1...middle relievers are interchangeable
Myth 2...Joba rules are to preserve his arm. Its to keep Joe away.

As much as I like the Bronx Babies, I'm not sure about going into '08 with these three as starters.

Oh those bases on balls. Can anyone here throw strikes???

by mickey07 on Aug 24, 2007 10:57 AM EDT reply actions

Not with

Hughes having the stamina of Jaret Wright.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions

That's not smart or fair

Hughes lost almost 1/2 a season with leg injuries. Because of the type of injury he couldn't run. So, he's not back in full condition. We won't really no about his stamina this season.

Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical(Yogi)

by Cbeck3 on Aug 24, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

He had

the same restrictions last year. He was near 5 innings nearly every start. I understand they want to protect him, but he is going to have to build this stamina up at some point.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Hahahahah

J. Wright couldn't go 5 innings. But that reminds me who did we trade him for? Thats right britton who could easily replace Bruny or henn

taking the east

by yankeechaser on Aug 27, 2007 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I finally figured it out

since Cashman traded for him this winter, I think Cashman just assumes that Britton had TJ surgery. That is why he isn't calling him up.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Aug 27, 2007 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions

So what's the pitching roster?

Go after Andy, of course. Do you try to lure Roger back? He's a good 3/4 starter, but for that sort of money, my God...

Pettitte
Hughes
Chamberlain
Wang

And...

Kennedy in long relief??? Can't keep that guy in Scranton next year.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions

Why not?

Pettitte, Hughes, Joba, Wang, Moose (maybe).

This is still IPK's first pro season, so I think he should start the year in AAA (which a 100 pitch/game limit). It gives him the chance to build up his stamina and get regular work.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Aug 24, 2007 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions

"Holy Cow"...

...said Rizzuto, "Somebody's proposing Moose for the rotation next year."

Actually, you're probably on target. I gotta believe he's still got something left. Just needs to get back on track.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions

That is more of a reflection of his salary

than any hopes of resurgence

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Aug 24, 2007 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions

I'll make a prediction

that may well backfire: Moose pitches strongly on Monday.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions

I've got one too

Moose is released by the Yanks early next season, prior to Memorial Day.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Aug 24, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions

And I would argue...

...that the "pen mismanagement" came from having a bunch of bad choices. Hard to manage guys who can't do the job they're brought in to do.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions

Mismanagement ...

He has a history of pen mismanagement. Unless you have someone like Rivera in the 7-8th, and Wetteland in the 9th, there's going to be issues.
Torre's maddening lefty/righty crap goes too far and frankly backfires too often for my taste.

MLB pitchers should be able to get out both lefties and righties, period.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 11:55 AM EDT reply actions

Okay

I may be in the minority. I've certainly had my fair share of moments w/ Joe this year re: the bullpen. But c'mon, Rivera/Wetteland, then Stanton/Nelson/Rivera makes anybody's life easier. Can't think of a longer run of 7 - 9 inning shutdown guys in recent memory. We just got spoiled. Now Joe's got to live and die like the rest of MLB managers. Sometimes he's the hero, sometimes he's the goat.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions

The last several years ...

he's the goat.

It's time for Girardi.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions

One other thought...

Why was using Mo for 2 innings over and over again setting up Wetteland okay, but 'overusing' Proctor, Viz, etc severe mismanagement.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions

It was his

first year as a reliever, he was young, and he had rest between those 2 inning outing.

He uses Viz in blowouts, just dumb.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Ability

During his setup days, never appeared in more than 66 games. Proctor last year (really his first year setting up) appeared in 83.

But moreso than that is the recovery time. Mo has shown that he didn't need alot of recovery time. Sturtze, Proctor, Farnsworth do. So as Joe tapped these guys night after night, their abilities diminished.

Bullpen strategy/philosophy is interesting. I have completely different thoughts on the subject than Joe, and most others.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions

66 games

but how many total innings?

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Sturtze and Farnsworth

don't belong in this conversation.

Sturtze was a starter before he came here. 195 IP followed by 224 IP for the DRays in '01 and '02.

The most work he ever got under Torre was 64 games and 78 innings. His arm just went bad. It happens.

Farnsworth 72 games, 66 innings. He is underworked if anything.

Rivera was 61 games and 107 innings in 1996.

Proctor was 83 games, but 102 innings, 5 less than Mo.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions

We have a winner...

That's my point. The big thing is, most relievers have a short shelf life of true dominance. They can be effective for a number of years, but few are going to be consistently dominant over a lengthy career. And when they do, they get the 9th. So more often than not, you're lucky when you get consistent 7th/8th inning guys, and you're bound to go through some fallow periods.

by chrisNYY on Aug 24, 2007 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Innings are

important but what is more taxing on the arm is the amount of appearnaces. Paul Quantrill pitched alot of innings before he came to the Yanks (usually multiple innings an appearance) but was used every 2 or 3 days. Torre consistently puts people out there almost every day. Mo in 96 had a few more innings than Proctor but almost 20 less appearances.
Torre does do somethings very well, but defending his bullpen managment is borderline retarded.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions

I hear you

but you realize the guy who used Rivera in '96 and the guy who used Proctor in '06 is the same guy right?

My basic point through all of this crap is this: yes, Vizcaino, and Proctor before him have been abused and overused.

BUT, I'm not completely convinced less rest would make them better pitchers than what they are. It's more ability that they need, not more rest.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions

I think

Proctor became good until he got overused. Same with Quantrill. Also, when you pointed out he used Nelson alot. After Nelson had 70 or 80 innings, the next two years he pitched 30 or 40 innings.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Torre

never sticks to his self-imposed rules-- i remeber heaing in spring training that mo wouldn't go 4-6 outs this year. hmmm, how's that working out? and how quickly did mo go from barely used to a bit overused? that's not easy to do, but some how torre managed it.

almost everybody is pretty much in agreement of his bullpen management skills.

Well, baseball was my whole life. Nothing's ever been as fun as baseball. -Mickey Mantle

by NumberSeven on Aug 24, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions

I know, he

broke that vow 2 weeks into the season in Boston. I do disagree though that Mo has been overused this season though. That situation last week when they gave him some rest was strange since he was not used that much the prior 2 weeks. I hope its nothing serious and just a dead arm period.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions

i agree

he has not been overused all season.. just in these past few weeks- when he hasn't had it, to keep throwing him out there when he could probably use an extra day here or there.. this ain't 1997 anymore.

Well, baseball was my whole life. Nothing's ever been as fun as baseball. -Mickey Mantle

by NumberSeven on Aug 24, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Nelson

That was 1998 when he only pitched 40 plus games. It was due to a back injury.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions

And that injury

wasn't due to being overused?

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions

No

it was due to having a bad back.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions

We agree

that we disagree on Torre's bullpen management.

Pride, Power, Cocktease

by ReLaunch on Aug 24, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions

It was the man

but not the same philosophy. I don't know if it's the loss of Mel and Zim, Joe misremembering what worked and why, or a combination of the two.
But Torre clearly does not manage the bullpen as well as he did when he started here.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Aug 24, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Um

it's fairly simple really.

It's going from excellent relievers to subpar relievers.

His style is the same, there's just less ability out there.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions

And

from a top of the line, better than the rest of baseball by far starting rotation to a solid but not close to spectacular rotation that has led to many a 5th inning exit.

by matthaggs on Aug 24, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions

That's my point

It's not so much the innings--and yes, Sturtze is a prime example because he was a starter, it's appearances. As a coach, I am more mindful of appearances and their impact as opposed to innings pitched. This is a concept that seems to escape Joe.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions

And...

He has had pitchers/players who should not have been there because they were "specialists" or Joe's favorites. Myers and Nieves come to mind. We can go down the list. Villone is on it now...no way he should still be out there. I never got the Brower thing. He will let these guys hang on, but turn to somebody more reliable to get the outs.

Its kinda like your boss telling you hey I need you to work this weekend because the other guys couldn't get it done.

Oh those bases on balls. Can anyone here throw strikes???

by mickey07 on Aug 24, 2007 3:46 PM EDT reply actions

Lefty righty thing

This is a philosophy that Joe embraces that has cost him. ML pitchers need to get out ML hitters--regardless of which side of the plate they are on. Myers is a classic example of this bs philosophy. He had a year when lefties couldn't touch him. Okay, so Joe figures he's my lefthanded specialist the next year. Problem is, Myers didn't get the memo. Lefties killed him. Instead he becomes Joe's righty specialist because he's getting righties out--until he stopped getting righties out.

It's a crazy way to manage a pen, and the few guys in college and on the AAU level that utilize this style are often burned.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Aug 24, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions

I hope we bring Joe back next year.

And I believe that the Yanks will have a nice run in the playoffs this fall. And I believe that run will make the decision on coming back next year Joe's.

Has he said anything about whether he wants to come back?

Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical(Yogi)

by Cbeck3 on Aug 24, 2007 4:48 PM EDT reply actions