Addressing a trade rumor

by anaconda on May 3, 2007 9:00 AM EDT in New York Yankees News

Rumor has it that the Phillies could be interested in Kyle Farnsworth after Tom Gordon has come down with a shoulder injury and could miss significant time. In exchange, the Yankees would likely be interested in RHP-Jon Lieber to help shore up the vacancy in the starting rotation.

If I'm Brian Cashman, I'd jump all over this deal and I'd eat as much of Farnsworth's contract as possible to make it happen -- not to mention pay for his plane ticket out of my own pocket and give him a full-body massage for good measure.

Jon Lieber has never been an elite pitcher, but he would add some much needed stability to the rotation for a couple of months at least until the return of Phil Hughes and/or the possible return of Roger Clemens. It is obvious to everyone that Carl Pavano will not contribute anything to this organization, so they need to get rid of him one way or another.

Lieber doesn't have to be great. He can win more than his fair share of games with the run support the Yanks' offense would supply him. His best assets are that he works fast, throws strikes, and he will eat up innings that the Yanks so desperately need. At this point, the Yanks can ill-afford to have two slots in the rotation filled by two rookies who have a hard time pitching into the 6th inning on a consistent basis.

If I'm GM-Pat Gillick of the Phillies, there is no chance I make this deal. First of all, it is still only the first week of May and Lieber is pitching well. Lieber isn't likely going anywhere until the Phillies fall out of the race. By then, the Yanks may no longer need him.

Secondly, Farnsworth is anything but a dependable arm and the Yanks would probably need to give up more than Farnsy and money to get Lieber. However, when teams are desperate so early in the season, they could be willing to do just about anything to address their needs.

Few imagined that Cashman would have swindled the Phils last season by trading a bucket of balls (four low-grade prospects) and a lot of cabbage in return for Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle. Of course, the major difference is that the deal was made in late July at the trade-deadline when the Phils were out of the race and clearly in salary-dumping mode -- not the first week of May.

Unfortunately, I don't see this deal happening. It is much harder to make a deal at the beginning of the season because every team is still mathematically in the pennant race.

It is far more likely that Cashman will have to watch the waiver wire and hope to catch lighting in a bottle like he did with Shawn Chacon and Aaron Small two years ago or the acquisition of Brian Bruney last season.

Your thoughts?

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Comments

Never should have...

let Lieber go in the first place. I was thrilled when the Yankees took him and let him mend in Florida after TJ surgery. The next year he pitched okay (but most will tell you that a pitcher needs 2 seasons to recover), and I was looking forward to that second year. BINGO, they let him get away. For what? Jaret Wright and Pavano (I'm not certain of this but wouldn't be surprised).

Now we want him back? Here's the deal. Give them Farnsworth and Pavano--eat their contracts, and in return get Lieber and a prospect who isn't awaiting TJH surgery.

by Ronster22 on May 3, 2007 9:33 AM EDT reply actions

Well, they'll never take Pavano

But I agree it may take more than Farnsworth. Farnsworth is not pitching well, and Lieber is so straight-up would mean Gillick is drinking too much. We'll need to pay most of KF's salary and also throw in soemthing else. What else would they need?

by dbm20th on May 3, 2007 9:54 AM EDT reply actions

I wouldn't give up any of the starting

pitching that is already with the big club, because we are talking about this season right now.

I think a Farnsworth trade makes sense, but if we were going to give up a starting pitcher it would probably have to be one of the prospects in our system.

Ohlendorf? Clipper?

Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and f*** the prom queen.

by Edwantsacracker on May 3, 2007 10:13 AM EDT reply actions

What about Bret Meyers?

I know the Phillies hate this guy...He's not a bad starter. I think he has some upside to him and the Phillies have him in their pen.

by AKJoe on May 3, 2007 11:08 AM EDT reply actions

They definitely don't hate him

He was their ace headed into the season, and he just got off to a terrible start. He'll be fine.

River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 3, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions

Hmm...

I bet it's something internal. How do you just throw your ace into the pen because he had 3 bad starts?

by AKJoe on May 3, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Because their pen is awful

and they needed one of their 6 starters to hold it down for a while. Myers, while being a very good starter, was the only starter fit for a relief role.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions

OK..

So you put your ace in the pen?

by AKJoe on May 3, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions

Myers isn't their ace

Cole Hamels is.

And, given the alternatives, Myers was the right choice to move to the pen. A good relief pitcher should be a high-strikeout, power pitcher. Lieber, Moyer, and Eaton don't fit that description. As for Garcia, he was acquired to be a starter, he's coming off of a minor injury, and he's also a pending free agent. Those three things, coupled with Myers' poor start make the Myers move to the pen easier to sell.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah sure,

a person who was a rookie last year is their ace. Going into the season, Myers was their ace.

Great Success!

by ReLaunch on May 3, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree, but

econo was saying he was the ace. Not true. hughes can be an ace, is he one, no. But i guess when you make predictions of Melky being a better player than Cano and saying Kendall is a good player, then it shouldn't be surprising.

Great Success!

by ReLaunch on May 3, 2007 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions

I didn't say "was"

I said "is." There's a big difference. And trust me, if the Phils put Hamels in the pen instead of Myers, there'd be an even bigger outcry from Philly fans.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions

According to ReLaunch,

second-year players can't be aces. You know, like Scott Kazmir in 2005 and Roy Oswalt in 2002. They clearly couldn't have started their second years as their respective teams' aces.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions

2nd year

pitchers can be aces if they actually are aces. Coming into the season, Myers was the ace. What are your projetions on Melky for the next month? 35 homers? .590 OBP?

Great Success!

by ReLaunch on May 3, 2007 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions

He was, but not by far

Hamels was well on his way to becoming the ace of the staff. At this point it's clear: Hamels is the best starter on the Phils, and he still would be if Myers remained in the rotation.

Although I'm sure Myers would have been fine if he stayed on the juice.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Gotta go with Econolodge here

Myers started unravelling when he smacked his wife around last year. Oddly, I wonder what it was about him that stood out around Fenway on that particular day though. Most of the 834,000 guys named Sully are probably pretty used to smacking their bitch up, but Myers is the one to get popped?

Anyway, I digress. Hamels is the ace of that staff.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on May 3, 2007 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Difference b/t Myers and "Sully"

Myers makes a ton of money; "Sully" likely does not.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions

True

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on May 3, 2007 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Look at Myers

numbers for the last 3 years (pretty good). Look at Hammels from last year (good, not great). I still don't think you can appoint a pitcher pitching his first full season the ace even though Myers got smacked around this year.

Great Success!

by ReLaunch on May 3, 2007 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm looking,

and I don't see much of a difference between Myers and Hamels last year. Their respective ERA's were .17 apart, they both struck out guys at high rates while being quite stingy with walks, and they both gave up their fair share of bombs. They were pretty much the same pitcher in 2006; they just happen to throw with different hands. Given how they performed last year and how they've performed thus far in 2007, I think it's quite justified to annoint Hamels the ace of the Phils.

By the way, I'm not sure why you pointed me to Myers's 2004. His line was pretty ugly that year.

Another thing: what's better? Good, or pretty good?

by Willton on May 3, 2007 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not disagreeing

with you that Hammels isn't their top pitcher now, I just believe going into the season Myers was the ace. I find it hard to appoint someone an ace when they didn't even pitch a full season last year.

Great Success!

by ReLaunch on May 4, 2007 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions

Myers was the "ace"

because he'd been there for longer, not because he was better. I'm not disagreeing with you that Myers was the appointed ace at the beginnning of the season, but when he was moved to the pen, he was not the ace anymore. Hamels was.

My main disagreement was with your "Yeah sure,
a person who was a rookie last year is their ace," comment. There are enough examples in baseball of second-year players being annointed the top pitcher of their respective teams to show that that statement is just silly. It happened with Oswalt, Kazmir, and Felix Hernandez (although he didn't end up having a good year), and I'm willing to bet that it'll happen with Hughes as well.

by Willton on May 4, 2007 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions

Your examples

of Kazmir, Felix, and Oswalt only hold true because all the other pitchers on the staff were not that good. Regardless of Hamels being or not being the ace presently, Myers was a good pitcher and the ace the last few years for the Phils.

Great Success!

by ReLaunch on May 4, 2007 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions

Not to mention

that the move is temporary. I seriously doubt that Manuel will be keeping Myers in the pen all year. It was just a quick solution to the problem of a crowded rotation until Gillick solves it by trading one starter for a useful piece.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions

Can we add Myers to the mix somehow?

He sucks just as bad - if not worse - than Farnsy.

by docgonzo on May 3, 2007 11:19 AM EDT reply actions

Keep him

Myers can make a spot start or long relief in an emergency, so he's useful to have around. He sucks at his supposed job, getting out the big lefty in a key situation, but he's been decent at eating innings in mopup work. He's actually been better against righties than lefties, so I think Joe just has to learn to use him properly. Despite how much it's seemed like he's sucked, his BAA this season is .186, 1.14 WHIP in 12.1 IP.

by SP on May 3, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

No no no no

Lieber was great with the Yankees, but he's older now, was hurt for much of the last two years, and even when healthy is prone to being hit hard. There's a reason he started the season in the bullpen. Last year, he gave up 30 more hits than innings pitched, and his ground outs to fly outs have gone down markedly each season since he left the Yanks (1.46 to 1.21 to 1.09).
Unless the Phillies are eating both contracts, I don't make this move.

Mystique, don't fail me now!

by jscape2000 on May 3, 2007 11:25 AM EDT reply actions

Maybe Lieber can be temporary

Here's what I would do -- in a perfect world, of course:

Trade Myers and Farnsy for Lieber...

Call up DeSalvo to fill the gap till Hughes returns, giving us a rotation of: Pettitte, Moose, Wang, Lieber and DeSalvo (Igawa would be relegated to long relief)...

Sign Clemens asap, let him work through the minors to get back into big league shape, then trade Lieber for middle relief or a 1st baseman. By this time, Hughes should be all better, giving us a rotation of: Clemens, Pettitte, Moose, Wang and Hughes.

by docgonzo on May 3, 2007 11:32 AM EDT reply actions

I wish

That's the dream rotation mentioned a couple weeks ago. Never going to happen, though, at the rate people have been injured.

by SP on May 3, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions

Enough with Clemens

You can never plan around acquiring a pitcher who may not even pitch this year. And even if Clemens does pitch this year, he's got another suitor who's willing to pay out of the nose for him as well. Clemens, while possible, is unrealistic at this point. Think of something else.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions

I disagree

We should get an answer either way - sit down with him and say, "Look, we want you and will meet your demands. You want in, great, let's work out a deal. If not, say no and we'll leave you alone." That simple.

by docgonzo on May 3, 2007 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions

Won't work

He wants to win a ring, so he's waiting to see who's in contention. If your answer to that is, "Fine, if you can't tell us now we're not interested," then you just sent him to Boston for a lot less money. Need to stay in the bidding to at least run up the price for other teams.
I think he also wants a clause in his contract that says he rides in from the bullpen on a white horse before each start.

by SP on May 3, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Stripper girlfriends, eh?

I'm sure they are much more fun to mount than white horses. Give Clemens a call and see what he thinks.

by Willton on May 3, 2007 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Other Options

Two sides to this:

If it takes only Farnsworth and money, make the deal. Lieber can help. Farnsworth has no value to the Yankees, and his roster spot can be used better. They need an ace reliever that can pitch two innings effectively, and pitch on back to back days. Farnsworth will have a good stretch this year at some point, during which he'll put together 14 shutout innings or something, but with the Yankees old, specialized roster, he's a luxury they can't afford. I would think that wouldn't work for the Phillies, either, but they're not getting Cordero for Lieber, and I'm not sure what other closer options there are. If they'll put their pre-season ace into the bullpen, they clearly have some element of desperation about them, and Gillick has overvalued saves in the past. It seems like a long shot, but I'd like to see it happen.
If it takes anything else, I would probably not like it. The difference between Lieber and Rasner, DeSalvo, Ohlendorf, Clippard or anyone else may not be that large at all. Over the course of 4 or 5 starts, it's really, really negligible. If the player in question has value to the Yankees now or in the future, I'd just as soon as go with one of these guys than Lieber.

by zukatesta on May 3, 2007 1:55 PM EDT reply actions

Addressing a trade rumor

Fartsworth, Melky, Meiny, Cairo, Nieves, Procter, Mike Myers, Phelps are all worthless. Why would the Phils want Farstworth for Lieber? At least Lieber can get through a few innings before his meltdown. When is the last time Proctor had a 1-2-3 inning or had an inning where he didn't give up a run? Farts is good for at least a four pitch walk every inning he pitches. The true Yankee killer is Cashman - who signed or traded for each one of these scrubs.

The Phillies aren't going to bend over for the Yankees like they did last year with Abreu - not for Farnsworth anyway.

I'd give them Proctor, Melky and Mike Myers for Lieber and Burrell (who's salary they are dying to get rid of)and hope the Phillies are desperate enough to get rid of Burrell's $$$ that they would make that trade. Then the Yankees would have an considerable upgrade at the OF position and 5th starter while getting rid of 3 albatrosses.

by joemustgo on May 3, 2007 3:58 PM EDT reply actions

Burrell?

Where would he play? The Yanks already have three starting outfielders (Matsui, Abreu, and Damon) and a DH (Giambi).

Not even the Yankees are going to pay someone $13M to be their 4th outfielder.

by anaconda on May 3, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Burrell can play 1B

I read somewhere he is willing an able. But, the Phillies were interested in trading him before the flurry of off season contracts. Now, I think they view him as a bargain.

Too bad, picking up a nearly average pitcher in a salary dump would be plan A.

by zukatesta on May 3, 2007 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions