Mussina Stinks
by RollingThunder on May 23, 2007 2:38 PM EDT
73 comments
I for one have never liked Mussina. In 2003 his greatest moment he tamed the hated Red Sox for a number of innings. I give him that. The guy is a head case and never has backed a runner off the plate. He rarely comes up big when it counts. The Yankees had gained some momentum with the wang pitching performance. Mussina killed that momentum b4 the game started. The yankees are a fragile group right now and to ready to accept losing. Its just another bad Brian Cashman signing. He has lost his fast ball and is just a waste of a rotation spot. We have a better chance with one of the kids taking his spot since most hitter have not batted against them yet. I would remove Mussina from the rotation and off of this team with a lot dead wood that still remains. This is not Yankee Baseball. Its apathy at its best.
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It's so easy, isn't it?
As far as big moments, you didn't even touch the biggest of all: 2001 ALDS. Down 0-2 on Oakland and facing elimination, Mussina threw seven scoreless innings in a game where our offense scored just one run.
Yanks and prospects
by PinstripePowerhouse on May 23, 2007 2:49 PM EDT reply actions
I am the last
A bad signing? When he signed the contract, from 01 he has been one of the better value deals of this decade.
As PP has said above, he has pitched big in some games.
I do agree though that he is a pussy and if that 85mph doesn't get near 88-90, he's done.
personally
by bronxbombers123 on May 23, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
That, and staying away from
crybaby
Speaking of cry babies
by Joselimatime on May 23, 2007 5:26 PM EDT reply actions
He is awaiting approval from the
out until 09
What an amazing waste.
by collink on May 23, 2007 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
by Joselimatime on May 23, 2007 6:27 PM EDT reply actions
Pavano
Mussina: one game does not a season make!
Keep your chin up.
Example: Mariano blew some and it seem he is back to his old self.
by StrappedYankee on May 23, 2007 10:21 PM EDT reply actions
Lest we forget
Then in 2003, Clemens pitched like ass in Game 7 against the Red Sox. Mussina came in in relief and stopped the bleeding, giving the offense a chance to come back. Those three scoreless innings--Moose's first relief appearance ever--also get overlooked because of Grady Little's decision, Giambi's homers, Rivera's relief, and of course Aaron Fucking Boone. But without it, we're talking about back to back Red Sox World Championships (does anyone doubt that the Soxwould have beat the Marlins after overcoming their dreaded rivals for the first time ever. If so, just see 2004 ALDS).
Mussina has been awful this year, and he has never been Cy Young (or even an award-winner). But he's been a consistent winner for the Yankees for half a dozen seasons now and for that Yankee fans should be grateful. A good season from Mussina is key to the team turning it around this year.
by Nettles Fan on May 24, 2007 1:15 PM EDT reply actions
Not to jump on you
Yanks and prospects
by PinstripePowerhouse on May 24, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
More on Mussina
Pitcher A) 16-9, 3.88 ERA, 175K, 204IP
Pitcher B) 17-9, 3.88 ERA, 145K, 206 IP
Pitcher C) 15-7, 4.00 ERA, 189K, 200 IP
Before I reveal who's who, the fact that all three average 200+ innings is a statement in and of itself. It's doubtful that any Yankee pitcher will amass 200 innings this year, which is a major cause of the team's troubles.
The other interesting note is that there isn't a rat's ass of difference among the three. The difference between 15-7 and 16-9 is the difference between Farnsworth, Bruney, Boehringer, or Ramiro Mendoza holding onto a victory three times or blowing it over the course of a season.
So let's get off Mussina's case. He's been Clemens-like over his Yankee career, and has an outside chance to be baseball's last 300-game winner, despite never winning 20 in a single season. His career ERA is under 4, which makes him a Hall of Famer by today's standards for pitchers.
FYI: A Mussina, B Pettitte, C Clemens
by Nettles Fan on May 24, 2007 2:05 PM EDT reply actions
I've got some stats for you
A) 32, 1.067, 228.2, 8.42, 142
B) 35, 1.324, 164.7, 7.21, 98
C) 38, 1.448, 29.0, 3.72, 64
Averages are nice, but they can mask trends, especially when you're talking about a 7-year average.
So A is Mike Mussina in 2001, when he finished 5th in Cy Young voting.
B is Mussina in 2004.
C is Mussina in 2007.
Those stats are age, WHIP, IP, K/9, and ERA+.
In fairness
142, 108, 129, 98, 101, 125, 64. Almost always above average, but never great since he turned 33.
The thing that concerns me
But since we are only relying on him to be a 4th starter he is more than sufficient.
by Edwantsacracker on May 24, 2007 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
PS
What?
Agreed
by pfistyunc on May 24, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Glavine close
by collink on May 24, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Glavine is definitely a Hall of Famer....
After Glavine and Unit, there will be no 300-game winners for a long time.
Glavine
by collink on May 24, 2007 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Glavine has all the hardware on his side....
Glavine also has 50 more career wins than Moose.
Wha?
by pfistyunc on May 24, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see the difference
Their numbers are not that different if you account for the difference in season played.
Also Moose faced what 6 WS Champion teams in his time in the AL East, while Glavine faced 2 in the NL East.
During the past 17 years the AL East offenses were far superiior than the NL East. Moose faced tougher competion.
by collink on May 24, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Glavine v. Mussina
PRAR - Pitching Runs Above Average
NRA - Normalized Run Average
DERA - Defense-adjusted ERA
Glavine: Career
PRAR: 1288
NRA: 3.85
DERA: 3.86
Mussina: Career
PRAR: 1167
NRA: 3.65
DERA: 3.68
Based on what I see here, Mussina has actually been the better pitcher. The only sticking point is that he has not pitched as long as Glavine has, so he loses points for longetivity. Glavine is a sure-fire HOFer, but I don't think Mussina is that far behind. I think Mussina is worthy of a ticket to Cooperstown, although it may take a few more years in the league.
Hell, if Schilling is going to get in, Mussina should too.
I don't think
I think Schiling is in
there are
Well
Although
Go back
NRA is an ERA that's been adjusted so that we can compare it across parks and eras.
DERA is an ERA that takes fielders into account.
These two stats suggest that Mussina has been better than Glavine over his career (though Glavine has 50 more career wins).
How about some more traditional stats?
Mussina has 2584K against 725BB. A career 124 ERA+. 10 seasons with 200+ IP (and 197 last season).
Who shall we compare him to?
http://www.baseball-reference.com offers us these comparisions through age 37:
Juan Marichal (915) *
Jack Morris (873)
Clark Griffith (869) *
Bob Welch (867)
Carl Hubbell (860) *
Curt Schilling (857)
Tom Glavine (857)
Jim Bunning (854) *
Bob Gibson (850) *
Kevin Brown (847)
* indicates HoF.
You can make the case to keep Moose out, but that makes him this generation's Blyleven.
If you also
<shrug>
In an era when 200 IP marks a workhorse, when a 3.50 ERA is above average, and 241 wins is good for fifth among active players, I would support Moose.
That's all.
Thats cool,
Why not?
Unless of course you think Mussina was juicing. In that case we'll just blacklist him.
Because
Life isn't all about numbers and neither is baseball.
As far as juicing, please explain future HOF's Melky's drop off? Did you see your "good player" Kendall's new shift? Usually teams mover to one side of the infield or play deeper. For him, every player comes in and plays closer to the right side since they know he can't pull or hit it far. What a "good player"
Well if Mosse isn't a HOFer,
By the way, spewing insults at me, while I'm sure is entertaining, does not make your position any stronger.
As for Melky, yeah, he's not performing well, though I imagine if he got regular playing time he'd peform a bit better. Your boy Cano does not have that excuse for his abysmal hitting.
you just do
The only person that agrees with you the Moose should be in the HOF is jscape, no one else does.
Moose does not even warrant consideration until 3 more good seasons.
P.S- Econo's allstar rotation would have Brown, Mussina ahead of Gibson.
Like RJ
Putting
Numbers are objective
Once again,
Please read what I write
That specific characterization may be off
So yeah, he was very good. I guess my standards are very strict, though, for the HOF.
Yanks and prospects
by PinstripePowerhouse on May 25, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
By the way, it is refreshing to see a huge throwdown going on and not being in the middle of it.
by pfistyunc on May 25, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
well if you believe
Wow, sensitive-much?
Your right,
See?
I suppose Mussina is a fringe HOFer as it stands. Though in my eyes, if guys like Warren Spahn, Bob Feller, Early Winn, Robin Roberts, and Red Ruffing are in the HOF, Mussina should be too.
please submit
An addendum
That's really my point
I would let Moose in because I think that over the course of his career he was one of the elite arms in the game. Not Pedro, obviously, but we only get one Pedro every decade or so. If you reserve the HoF for players of that magnitude you're gonna have a third of the players that are in now. Which I would also support.
End of the day, I don't think Mussina will get in. I would vote for him though.
Nice
And for those who cited Glavine's Cy Youngs, here are Tom's numbers on his 2 CY years:
153 ERA+, 1.095 WHIP ('91) and 171, 1.203 WHIP ('98)
Here are Mike's two best years (neither garnered any "awards"):
159 ERA+, 1.079 WHIP ('92) and 163 ERA+, 1.163 WHIP ('94).
Do I think Moose will get in? Probably not; he doesn't have enough of the stupidest stat in existence while Glavine's got 300 of 'em. But really, after looking at the stats, it's hard to argue against the fact that they are two pitchers with awfully similar numbers.
AL East has to mean something
Moose should get some HOF credit for the competition he faced.
by collink on May 24, 2007 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed
Ignore Cy Youngs. That's a popularity contest that depends on wins, a stupid stat.
Look at Moose's WHIP, his ERA+, his K/9.
He's not an inner circle guy like Maddux or Clemens, but he's the next tier.
In fairness
Yanks and prospects
by PinstripePowerhouse on May 24, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that
With the current selectivity of the hall I think that moose should be given consideration, he will probably not make it though, because I doubt balloters will look at the stats that have been sighted above. They will look at wins, and they will look at popularity, and in that respect Moose doesn't exactly hold up.
He has workhorse numbers, but he is never exactly the pitcher that everyone is worried about. On this staff you might worry about facing Wang, or Pettitte, or Clemens when he comes back. Moose is just that other guy that gets overlooked.
by Edwantsacracker on May 24, 2007 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Hall of Fame
Do you have to think about it?
If you have to think about it, the guy is not a Hall of Famer. There are guys who have snuck in because of popularity contests, and the hall has gotten watered down over the years because of it, but the bar for admission should remain high.
In the case of Mussina, you have to think about it because he's never won20, never won a Cy Young, won't win 300, never led the league in strikeouts or ERA, and came close,but never pitched a no-hitter. His Hall of Fame balloting, like his career, will come close, but just miss. Tommy John should get in before Mussina.
by Nettles Fan on May 30, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Mussina: A "nice" pitcher
That little extra something in my opinion is the following: multiple Cy Young's, 200+ victories and a 2-1 win/loss ratio, 3,000 ks, A World Series title, considered a dominant pitcher for 5+ seasons (multiple 20 win seasons, era sub 2.50)
Not that a pitcher needs all of those things, but Moose just doesn't have it. Moose doesn't make it because as Mazzone said, "He's a nice pitcher."
My favorite cliche
Yanks and prospects
by PinstripePowerhouse on May 25, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
He was the most feared hitter of my youth. If guys are going to argue about Mussina, Blyleven, and scores of other "very good" players they should first consider those few guys who truly belong but aren't in the Hall.
Yuck
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=riceji01&year=00
Rice was feared
Of course they can't be compared
Here's my problem with Blyleven being denied. He is 5th on the career strikeout list. 5TH!! How do you deny a guy like that? Not to mention he is among the career leaders in shutouts (60 shutouts, 9th in history) and pitched a ton of complete games (242). Add on to that the fact that he was incredibly durable (4970 career innings pitched) and pitched for over 20 years, and was good for almost all of those years.
The voters are keeping him out because of his W/L record, which is total bullshit. The only reason he's not in the HOF is because he pitched very deep into games on teams that did not offer much run support, leading to 250 losses next to 287 wins. That basically punishes him for being a durable starter that pitched on bad teams, and that's totally unfair. Bert Blyleven was a better pitcher than half of the current pitchers in the Hall of Fame, and to keep him out is a travesty.
Jim Rice was a fine hitter, but he's not worthy of the Hall. He was excellent in his twenties, but his numbers got a huge boost from Fenway Park: Retrosheet shows him at .320/.374/.546 with 208 homers in Fenway, .277/.330/.459 with 174 HR on the road. Moreover, the guy collapsed in his early thirties. At age 34 he was a shadow of his former self, and at age 36 he was done. If Rice had lasted a few years longer, I could see a case for him being inducted, but he didn't. Albert Belle has a stronger case for the HOF than Rice.
Blyleven not so much
I could point to scads of hitters who have sub-par hitting records. Guys like Mazeroski, Killebrew are just two. Rice was the dominant hitter of his decade. There was no more feared hitter in the AL than Jim Rice during his time.
Rice won an MVP, 2 Silver Sluggers, six times he batted .309 or better, had a lifetime .854 ops, this is HOF stuff.
I've got an idea? Put 'em both in... and while you're at it throw Rose in too.
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