Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Terry Collins, David Wright, And The Mets/Brewers Kerfuffle

Cashman, Torre Must Go, Hughes Overrated

Cashman and Torre's Failures

Star-divide

BAD GM, BAD MANAGER, BAD BULLPEN = NO PLAYOFFS FOR YANKS
By Andy Roth

The string of nine consecutive American League East Titles and eleven straight playoff appearances will end in the Bronx this season. There are just too many hurdles  to overcome.

The firing of the General Manager, Brian Cashman, is long overdue, and it is no coincidence that the Yankees have gone six years without a World Championship with Cashman at the helm. Despite having the highest payroll in baseball by far each year during that stretch, the Yankees have failed to win a World Series because Cashman has probably been the worst talent evaluator in the game.

The nucleus of the clubs that won three straight titles in the late 90's was built by Gene Michael and Bob Watson. Once Cashman had to replenish the talent left by his predecessors he has failed miserably.

In particular, his ability to evaluate pitching talent has been a complete disaster. Cashman's penchant for giving starting pitchers with unimpressive track records huge contracts is hard to fathom. Just take a look at a few examples.

Sterling Hitchcock.  Despite a 67-72 lifetime record and coming off major arm surgery, Cashman signed Hitchcock to a two-year, twelve million dollar contract. Hitchcock ended up having more are problems and pitched just 79 innings in his two years in the Bronx, going 2-5 with a mid-five ERA.

Jaret Wright. Cashman gave Wright a three-year, twenty-one million dollar contract coming off a career year 15-8 mark with the Braves. He completely ignored Wright's long years of arm problems and his 11-19 record from 2000-2003.  Sure enough, Wright met with more arm problems in his first season with the Yanks and pitched just 63 innings. The second season was mediocre at best, but Wright failed miserably in the pivotal Game 3 of the American League Divisional Series which culminated in his ticket out of the Bronx.

Carl Pavano. Once again Cashman ignores a long track record of failure and signs a pitcher coming off a career year to a huge contract, giving Pavano a four-year, forty million dollar deal. Prior to Pavano's 18-8 season in 2004, his career mark was 45-60.
Pavano's Yankee career so far has been a complete disaster and the outlook is dim with Pavano sidelined once again with more arm problems.

Cashman's track record in the bullpen, whether it be a free-agent signing or trade isn't any better. The long list of names that have passed through here over the years that have failed is mind boggling. Remember Antonio Osuna, Juan Acevedo, and Jay Witascik?
How about Gabe White and Felex Heredia? Both pitchers were unimpressive after coming over from the Reds, yet in the off-season Cashman re-signed them to new two-year contracts. The following season, White and Heredia were so bad that they were both dealt before years' end. More recently we have Kyle Farnsworth and Luis Vizcaino. Cashman signed Farnsworth to set-up Mariano Rivera not even knowing Farnsworth couldn't be used in back-to-back games because of his ineffectiveness.  Vizcaino, meanwhile had an excellent strikeout-to-walk ratio in each of the last three seasons, but his ERA was in the mid to high three's in each of those years.

Next up on the chopping block is Joe Torre; not because of the Yankees' bad start, but because Torre is an extremely poor game strategist and one of the most overrated managers in baseball in this area.

Last week when Derek Jeter sat out a game after getting hit by a pitch on the leg, Torre put Doug Mientkiewicz in Jeter's place in the two-hole and batted Robinson Cano eighth. How do you bat a washed up hitter with a .150 average in that spot in the lineup and why in the world would you want Mientkiewcz to get more at bats in a game than Cano?

But this wasn't the first time Mientkiewcz was part of one of  Torre's blunders. As a matter of fact he was probably involved in the worst strategerial move of the Yankee manager's career. In game five of the American League Championship Series in Boston in 2004 Torre chose to pitch to David Ortiz with runners at second and third and two outs in the 14th inning with Mientkiewcz on deck. Ortiz, one of the game's great hitters, had only homered the night before to win Game 4 and homered again in the 8th inning of Game 5 to ignite the Red Sox's rally. The choice to pitch to Ortiz rather than Mientkiewcz has to go down as one of the biggest blunders in baseball history.

These are not isolated mistakes. Torre became more vulnerable as a manager as the Yankees' began to field weaker teams following the four World Championships of the late 90's. During that run he had a push-button bullpen. It was hard to make a mistake when you had the likes of Mendoza, Nelson, Stanton, Rivera and Wetteland..

In game three of the 2003 World Series against Florida he brought in one of the worst pitchers in the game that season in Jeff Weaver in relief rather than using Mariano Rivera.  Torre explained the choice saying he wanted someone who could give him a lot of innings and didn't want to use Rivera in a non-save situation. He misread the situation on both fronts. With Weavers' track record that season it was highly unlikely that he would go any sort of distance without giving up a run and losing the game. He also didn't understand that you had to use Rivera there for two reasons. One, to prevent Florida from scoring and two, to extend the game to get into the weaker part of their bullpen.

And speaking of bullpens,  Torre, earlier in the season, actually called this the best pen he's ever had. Has amnesia set in? How could he make such a statement with the relief corp he had during the championship run.

As a matter of fact, this may be the weakest bullpen he has ever had, and one of the main reasons why the Yankees won't make the playoffs. Kyle Farnsworth has been a failure as the set-up man for Rivera. Scott Proctor seems to get worse as time goes on. Proctor consistently throws in the mid 90's but his fastball is very flat and very hittable as exemplified by his 5.12 ERA this season.  Luis Vizcaino looks like a mediocre reliever at best, while Mike Myers has been less than adequate as the clubs' lefty specialist. Brian Bruney has pitched well but if you have to rely on him to be a featured part of this bullpen then you are in trouble.

As for Mariano Rivera, I'm not convinced Mo is slipping yet, but even with a strong Rivera this Yankee bullpen is just too weak in every other area to have any kind of success.

Observations...Mike Mussina's return this week will improve the Yankee's rotation but don't look for big results from the The Moose this season. Age seems to be catching up with Mussina as he continues to break down each year. Also, his fastball now tops out in the high 80's making it awfully tough to have a high level of success...At the other end of the age spectrum is Philip Hughes. I've seen Hughes three times now; twice in spring training and his major league debut last week. What I saw was a pitcher with a low 90's fastball with very little explosiveness. I can't see Hughes being a big time talent on the major league level with that type of fastball.

Comment 34 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Welcome to PA, andyroth
Many Yankees fans will agree with you on the Cashman and Torre argument, but most disagree with your argument against Hughes.

Let's give the guy more than one start in the major-leagues before you declare him overrated.

His fastball reaches the mid-90s and that's plenty hard to succeed in this league.

I also think way too many fans get caught up in the readings of the radar gun.

Mark Buehrle threw a no-hitter a couple of weeks ago and never topped 90 MPH on the gun the entire night.

Greg Maddux won 4 Cy Young Awards and is a first-ballot HoF'er and never threw particularly hard -- even in his prime.  His old Braves' teammate -- Tom Glavine -- is on the verge of 300 wins himself and will very likely end up in the Hall as well.

Pitching isn't about throwing 100 MPH and blowing away hitters.  Pitching is about location, command, and the ability to throw strikes.

Give the kid a chance before you nail him to a wall.

by anaconda on May 1, 2007 1:31 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree about giving him several more starts
I have seen Hughes pitch from a very good place to watch him.  I was right behind the catcher in the first row when he pitched in syracuse.

He showed me a lot positive.

Fastball that topped out at 94.
A very good curve that he changes speed on between the mis 60's and high seventies.  The thing is huge and the break is almost straight down.  He could pitch is the majors with that curve, and his sinker (88) and a changeup.

He also had some pitches with movement in the mid 80's.  There is a radar on the Syracuse scoreboard so you can look every pitch.  I was confused about what these were.  I later read he throws both a sinker, changeup and a slider.  That may explain why I couldn't decide which it was.

His variety of speeds made the few fastballs he threw hard look like 105.

He commanded all his pitches.  10K 0 BB.

So, why am I not sure he's the thing for the Yankees?  OR why am I not sure he's the thing for the Yanks now?

He is 20.  We do not want to damage is arm, or his confidence.  Being loose and confident is very important to pitching well.

I watched what happened to the Cubs good young arms.  

I think this guy is going to be something special. He will be a big help IF THE BIG 3 do their jobs.

I think he cannot be a 'stopper' for us now because he should be on a moderatrely low pitch count (90?).  He will need a little extra bullpen support and our bullpen is out of gas right now.

I think if we give him 4 starts he'll dazzle people a couple of times.  I say take care of this kid.  He may be a great Yankee Pitcher.

He has been inconsistent.  He may need more minor experience to iron that out.  He had a bad spring, one bad start in the minors, and he was not sharp in his big league debut.

I think it's hard to know what's best now.  I wish Mel was still there.  I believe he'd know.  To me Gator is still an unknown as a pitching coach.

What makes a good manager?....Good Players. (Yogi)

by Cbeck3 on May 1, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

You made several of the same points....
that I did a week ago when I argued that it wasn't the time to promote Hughes.

http://www.pinstripealley.com/story/2007/4/24/266/68106#commenttop

I have little doubt that the kid is going to be a great pitcher.  I just think he needs more time down in Scranton to learn.

Obviously, the vast majority of comments don't share my opinion.

However, all of that is a far cry from declaring him "overrated" because nobody but andyroth believes that.

by anaconda on May 1, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let me be
the first to disagree.  You cite examples, an noble undertaking. To wit:
Jared Wright- a bad signing, but a relatively cheap one considering the market at the time (same off-season as Pavano) and the insertion of a buyout clause after the second year makes it hard to suggest that they "completely ignored Wright's long years of arm problems".  Did they sign a shitty pitcher?  Yes, but I would argue worth the gamble at the time since Wright was 29 and we've seen that pitchers take longer to mature than hitters.
Carl Pavano- bad in retrospect, but he hadn't been hurt much prior to that, and (more important than his win/loss record) was coming off back to back 200IP seasons.  This is a guy nearly every other team wanted.
Farnsworth- I think the not pitching back to back thing is a Torre creation/ small sample size issue.
More importantly you ignore that these are scouting issues, and while a GM needs to be sure his scouts are giving him good information, Cashman only got to revamp the scouting department in the last year or two (at the same time our farm system started to rebound, coincidence?).

Pitching to Ortiz- yeah, a lousy move in retrospect, but again you ignore a larger context.  Estaban Loaiza had just walked Damon and Ramirez.  Do you really want a pitcher with control problems who had just walked two guys to load the bases and then have to throw strikes (especially to a lefty if you're a baseball manager who believes, as all managers do, in the myth of the righty/lefty matchup?).
Not using Rivera- this one boggles my mind.  I understand the "use your best pitcher" arguement, but you have games the next two nights, somebody's going to have to close the game if you get a lead, and using Rivera early probably just means you see Jeff Weaver later.  I blame Aaron Boone for not making contact with the bases loaded and one out.
So what if Torre said it's his best pen?  He probably says it every year at some point.  You're right, Proctor has been hittable, Viz has looked bad, and Myers has been inadequate.  This is what happens when you only get 4 innings out of your starters night after night because 3 of your 5 guys are on the DL.  And Brian Bruney is good at the game of baseball; just because you don't recognize his name you should recognize that a WHIP of 1.00 in 44 innings with the Yankees and 39Ks shows that he may have mastered the wildness that was his undoing with the D-backs).

Philip Hughes- no "explosiveness" on his fastball.  I'm laughing cause all I can imagine is Wily E. Coyote packing the ball with dynamite before pitching to RoadRunner.  He has some things to learn, but he handled the Jays "B list" hitters well (and they are still above average).  I'm more interested in the quality of his change and that hammer of a 12-6 curve he uncurls.  94 will be more than enough to compliment those pitches.

So other than your analysis of Cashman, Torre, and Hughes, I agree with everything you've said.  Welcome to Pinstripe Alley.

Mystique, don't fail me now!

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2007 2:04 AM EDT reply actions  

I got movement
Hughes has a lightning bolt and simply has to refine it. Putting a tail on an upper 90s fastball, cutting or sinking an offspeed pitch isn't impossible to master.

Writing a guy off after one mediocre start is insane. Wang didn't throw a sinker when he first came to the Yankees. Pettitte didn't throw a cutter when he showed up. And if I recall Clemens didn't start throwing Mr. Splitty until well into his career.

Using Rivera for the sake of using Rivera is not the answer. In fact, I believe jus giving him innings will only hurt him. He needs to enter games in the 8th and 9th with the game on the line.

As for Cashman, I've been calling for his head since last season. He may be well-liked and well respected throughout the league, but he hasn't put together a starting rotation with any explosiveness, or consistency. Instead he threw millions at Igawa, Wright, and Pavano. For nothing in return.

The fat lady is singing.

by Ronster22 on May 1, 2007 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

One for Three
Couldn't be more correct on Cashman, but you miss the boat on the other two in my opinion. Since you are new, I will give you a little history lesson: I have been calling for Cashman's head for years, only to be met with comments like "you are crazy" and "he is one of the best GM's in baseball." Now, the occupants of the Alley have come around and realized I was right all along and now I am in full gloat mode.

As for Torre, he certainly has shortcomings, but I don't think this start is his fault. He has the support of the players and is crucial in their pursuit of Clemens so he has to stick around.

Hughes: wow, no idea where you came up with that one. The kid is 20 years old, let's wave more than four innings before calling him an Eric Duncan, err....a bust. There is a reason that pretty much every worthwhile publication has him pegged as the #1 pitching prospect in baseball. If he was that overrated, someone would have caught on by now.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on May 1, 2007 7:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Damn, I forgot
that watching a guy three times makes you an expert on him.

It's easy to say he won't be very good. That way, when he is, you can say, "Well, I'm glad I was wrong! LOL ROMFL!"

Other than that:

  • Yes, Torre's bullpen management is terrible
  • Yes, Cashman has his share of blunders, especially in the pitching department
  • No, the bullpen is not weak, just overtaxed. If Torre actually let Farnsworth pitch, he'd be fine. We talk about Mo being less effective because he goes so long between appearances, but shit, look at Farns. The "no back to back days" is a fabrication of Joe Torre's shitty imagination.
  • What are you willing to bet that the Yankees don't make the playoffs this year? You seem pretty sure of yourself.
River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 9:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Farnsworth
Farnsworth proved last year that he sucks pitching both a second inning, and pitching on back to back days.  Furthermore, when he did pitch a second day or a second inning, his back frequently locked up and he declared himself unavailable the following day(s).  This is not a figment of Torre's imagination - this all really happened.  

Joe can be blamed for many things, but Farnworth's frailness is not one of them.

by matthaggs on May 1, 2007 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm looking at his game logs
You know, the things that log what he did each day of the season. I'm into June now, and guess what? On each and every occasion he threw a second day in a row, he allowed ZERO runs.

I'll let you know when I finish.

River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also check
how many days off he had to take after those games with a bad back.

And are you also checking how many inherited runners he allowed to score?  

by matthaggs on May 1, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Inherited runners
We're all pretty much in agreement that he should start an inning and not come in with guys on.
River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just so it isnt' left unsaid
22 runners inherited
8 scored

Not very good. Once again, I'm not advocating he come in with runners on. I'm just saying that leaving him lounging in the bullpen so often is stupid.

River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know who should be blamed?
Hmmmm, how about the fucking retard that gave him $17M? Man, I love being right.
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on May 1, 2007 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know you're loving this, but.....
keep in mind that Cashman is getting pounded by some fans right now because the Yanks aren't playing well.

If this team wins the AL East again and Cashman makes a move in late July to put them over the top -- then many of the same people who are now calling for his job will be singing his praise at the end of the regular season.

As you well know, too many Yankee fans are so reactionary that it's ridiculous and embarrassing to the rest of us.  

They hated A-Rod and booed him relentlessly last season but now they love him because he murdered the ball in April.

They'll start booing him again this season if he finds himself in a prolonged slump.

by anaconda on May 1, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

True
Good point. For me, he would have to get Albert Pujols for Miguel Cairo at the break to make up for his reign of terror over the past several seasons.
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on May 1, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

ZERO
When Farnsworth threw two days in a row last year, he gave up exactly zero runs on the second day.

You can say it's his back, but everyone gets dinged up over the course of the season. He wasn't available for what, five, six games tops last season? He never hit the DL. I'd say that's pretty good.

He pitched three days in a row twice. Once, he got rocked on the third day. The other, he didn't allow a run in all three games.

This is ridiculous.

River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

When I take over the country
I'm putting you in charge of the fact checking department.  We need what you do.
Mystique, don't fail me now!

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

You can call me Myth Buster
Except without the cool facial hair.
River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

What's ridiculous
is defending Farnsworth, and blaming Torre for not using him more.  Did you watch the games he has already fucked up this season?  I did.

April 11th, Minnesota - 1-1, 8th inning. Enter Farnsworth, exit tie game and any chance of winning.  

April 13th, Oakland.  Yankees lead by one. Farnsworth's straight ball to Swisher lands on the other side of the fence, tie game, Yanks lose in extras.  

Can you really blame Torre for not trusting him and trying someone else for a little while?

And in games like the one in Boston, the time to bring him in would have been when Pettitte got pulled, but, lo and behold, as is often the case in close games, there were men on base.

What good is a setup man if he can't be trusted to come in with men on base?

And in case you didn't notice, when he did come in on Saturday - with no one on base - he put several men on base himself, and gave up the only run Boston scored, and the entire viewing audience of Yankee fans closed their eyes when Manny came up.

by matthaggs on May 1, 2007 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

And what did he do to Manny?
Refresh my memory.

He's not perfect. He's going to have shitty outings. FWIW, his fastball was hitting 90 on the YES gun in the Minnesota game, and only a couple of ticks higher in the Oakland game. Normally, he hits 97-99 on that gun. Obviously something was wrong.

River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's my point
with him, more often than not, "something is wrong".

What does Torre have to put a gun on him in the pen now?  

If he has his velocity he doesn't have his control, and sometimes (like in Oakland) he has neither.  

And, as has been mentioned by pfisty (c'mon I know you agree with me on this one, go against PP for once) the guy has zero baseball IQ. Posada can only do so much back there.    

Occasionally, he looks like a guy you might want in the game during a sweaty moment, but to me he is the very definition of "unreliable" and/or "maddeningly inconsistent".  

by matthaggs on May 1, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Baseball IQ
Not gonna disagree with you there. In fact, it was Farnsworth himself that said that he was trying to "pitch" last year, rather than "throw."
River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Powerhouse has a good point, though
Farnsworth NEEDS the work.  

He already has a tough time finding the strike zone on a good day, but having so much time in between appearances further exacerbates the problem.

To be fair, Mo has cost the Yanks just as many games in April as Farnsworth did.

It's hard for any reliever to get into a rhythm if he rarely get the call from the pen.

I think that's why Mo hasn't pitched well.  The guy certainly isn't suddenly washed up because he was dominant in Spring Training and barely broke a sweat.

by anaconda on May 1, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Farnsworthless sucks
But not as bad as others that we have. Torre simply has to use him more.
Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on May 1, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anecdotally
You know who's really bad with allowing inheritted runners to score?
Mariano Rivera.
And every other pitcher in the world.  All you can do is ask these guys to throw strikes and hope they get outs.  How those outs come is largely beyond their control.  
Also, don't hitters always say they love to bat with the bases loaded cause the pressure is all on the pitcher?  Can we then assume that pitchers coming in with men on base are more likely than normal to give up hits?  I'd have to dig through a lot more stats for that, and it's May and I have papers to write and grade.  Perhaps I'll get back to this idea in June...
Mystique, don't fail me now!

by jscape2000 on May 1, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can help with some of the legwork
Baseball Prospectus tracks inherited runners and inherited runners scored. Hence, my finding on Farnsworth.
River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree
We'll set up a Parlimentary system. I call Prime Minister!
River Ave. Blues
Yanks and prospects

by PinstripePowerhouse on May 1, 2007 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Biggest blunders in baseball history
Not only is this not the largest blunder in baseball history, its not a blunder at all:

Ortiz 2004 BA: .301
Mientkiewicz 2004 OBP: .340

With first base open, and two outs, in the bottom of the inning (when 1 run means you lose), Ortiz can only beat you with a hit. Mientkiewicz beats you with a hit or a walk. The numbers above are the whole story: you pitch to Ortiz, and you increase your chances of reaching the 15th inning by 4%.

More over, an error and you lose too, and Ortiz is more likely to strike out than Mientkiewicz, minimizing the chance for an error by like .1% or something.

But Torre has sucked since 2000. He's not the same manager. He's got so many crutches now, he's become a caricature.

by zukatesta on May 1, 2007 6:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, Hughes SUUUUCKS
I mean, he wlked three guys tonight!
I wish the red sox the best in their 2090 playoff campaign

by roatti on May 1, 2007 10:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Moar_bacon_small
The Captain Calls a Players Only Meeting
Dsc00073_small
Rivera Thoughts: Endings, Scripts and Stories

Recent FanPosts

Swell_small
We Can Do Better
Dwill_jayz_small
My Mother's Role in Recent Yankees' Success
129090373127704989_small
Cole Hamels, the Phillies woes, & the Yankees
Lebron_small
DRob the Putz
Small
Mo's ACL
Mickey-mantle-at-yankee-stadium-1963-photographic-print-c10115880_small
Wow, so now where do we stand?
Nyy_small
Mariano thoughts (AKA ramblings)
Mariano-rivera
Roster Nonsense

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Mo_rivera_small Travis G

Nsapcs7_extr_small Brandon C.

Writers

Moar_bacon_small Lord Duggan

V5zevr_small WhatwouldJeterdo

Costanza_small I'mGivingYouARaise

Picture_2_small Frank Campagnola

Cone_coffeez_small Andrew GM

Derek-jeter-1_small Chris McKeown

T128_small Rob Steingall

Don-mattingly_small William Juliano