Now the deal is supposedly off

by docgonzo on Dec 4, 2007 12:06 PM EST Comment 72 comments

[editor's note, by jscape2000] frontpaged

According to Yammering Hank, who said the Twins were asking too much. Meanwhile, the Red Sox are still in the hunt and will probably get away with giving up less than the Yankees would have, of course.

Best case scenario is Santana stays in MIN one more season, then the Yankees outbid everybody when he hits the FA market. Worst case scenario, of course, would be him winding up in BOS for the next 5-7 years.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlKIFtFAmgkm_riZ7BYC7I0RvLYF?slug=ap-wintermeetings&prov=a p&type=lgns

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Haren

is not an option either. Beane will only take Hughes and Kennedy or Horne.

I vote: let's go to battle with the kids next year. The future is now!

Nuke the whales. Save Phil Hughes!

by marcbouch9 on Dec 4, 2007 12:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

couldnt agree more

im happy if this deal falls through, just imagine santana gets hurt, or hughes becomes the next roger clemens like he was believed to be.. dont give up on him , he hasnt had enough experience

by Soriano NY 12 on Dec 4, 2007 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I read somewhere..

i think espn.com- that word was the longer this all went on, the less inlcined the Yanks brass were to make this deal, even if the twins had said yes. i like the idea of going into the season with the SPs the yanks have got- and hoping that Santana doesn't wind up in beantown.

i would still be shocked though if melky is on the opening day roster.. i think he gets moved in one deal or another.. to atlanta for soriano or the like.

You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth. -Mickey Mantle

by NumberSeven on Dec 4, 2007 12:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Haren's going

to cost more than Santana. Angelos won't trade us Bedard unless he's sure of robbing us blind.

That leaves 3 options:

Keep the kids (whoo!)
Deal for a lower tier pitcher: Sheets, Harden
Deal a bat for a pitchers.

At least Hughes and Kennedy are safe.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 12:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Speaking of

The Cubs want a LH OF. We have Damon and Matsui. Do you think we could send one over for Prior and something?

Sheets and Harden will cost too much, but the Cubs may keen on it. Of the three, I'd prefer to take the risk on Prior.

Nuke the whales. Save Phil Hughes!

by marcbouch9 on Dec 4, 2007 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ehh..

That's a bit much for Prior no? We're not even sure if he has his velocity back. I'd rather send over a lower level prospect or two for him.

I'd send Damon to Texas if he was okay with it. Try and pry Teagarden and one of their lower level bats away.

I'd send Matsui to the Dodgers if possible for a young IF bat (not Loney... maybe LaRoche? Colletti seems to hate LaRoche for some reason) or relief arms (not Broxton obviously).

The starters are fine I think. Everyone basically knows what I'd do with option #3, so I won't repeat it. :P

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It was the "and something"

part that you missed. I haven't figured that part out yet.

I don't think we could get what you suggest for Damon or Matsui.

Nuke the whales. Save Phil Hughes!

by marcbouch9 on Dec 4, 2007 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

Texas needs a CF stopgap till their young OFs are ready. Damon + cash would make it cheap and sensible.

They have too many catchers. Salty, Teagarden, Laird, Max Something in the minors.

Dodgers: LaRoche is a slim possibility. They don't play him for some reason despite his sick minor league numbers. I'd be content with a bullpen arm or two from the minors for Matsui.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd take

Marmol or Pie and Prior for Matsui.

My guess is Salty moves to 1B. He rakes.

Nuke the whales. Save Phil Hughes!

by marcbouch9 on Dec 4, 2007 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Salty's a beast :)

BTW

Red Sox have apparently increased their offer one more time.

They're still not offering both Lester and Ellsbury though.

If Santana goes to the Sox, hopefully it'll teach Hank to keep his fat mouth shut and let Cashman handle things.

What a moron.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Prior-itize

The last thing we need to compliment the American Idle is Prior. The guy can't stay healthy and I wouldn't go near him with a foul pole. I'm all for moving Matusi or Damon provided what we have on the farm is realistic and not Yankees hype.

Let's focus on building a better pen!

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Dec 4, 2007 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sheets is a FA after this year

Why not wait?

by docgonzo on Dec 4, 2007 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Depends on

what he costs right?

If all he costs is a few decent prospects (as in, none of the big 3, AJax, Tabata, Betances), you'd have to take that deal.

True he's an FA but there's no guarantee that he'll hit FA. How many good young pitchers in the last decade have hit FA?

Pedro? Zito (although you can argue if he's good or not)?

I can't think of many off the top of my head. They all get signed or traded. Peavy's not going to hit FA. Neither will Bonderman. Or Sabathia.

You need a perfect storm situation. The pitcher needs to have a no-trade. The GM needs to be competent. There can't be a firesale. The cost in prospects has to be too much for any team etc.

Santana is close to filling all those conditions. The prospect cost, for the Sox, seems low.

Funny how Lester, Crisp, Lowrie and Masterson gets it done for the Sox, but Hughes (younger/better than Lester), Melky (Younger/better than Crisp) and a 3rd guy isn't enough.

Hank's mouthing off probably had some effect.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hank probably did screw the pooch

while at the same time, teams always want to ask more from the Yanks than they do from others.

by docgonzo on Dec 4, 2007 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

Boston's going to land him.

Sigh. I knew the Yankees needed to go into rebuild mode.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re:

Sabbathia might be a FA after 2008. There is no gaurantee the Indians can sign him. It all depends if tries to get a Peavy type deal or a Zito type deal. If he only wants a Peavy type deal, there is no way he leaves Cleveland.

If I were the NYY at think point, I would cave on the 3rd player in the deal. Give them Jackson if thats what they want. If BOS gets Santana you can kiss the AL East goodbye for the next 3 years, at least. Jackson is only a A+ level prospect at this point, right? Is it worth letting BOS get Santana over a A+ level prospect?

Who could compete against:

Santana/Beckett/Matsuzaka/Schilling/Buchholz?

That is just insane. If it were me, I would give up the prospect to prevent that, no question.

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No

Other teams depend on us folding when the Red Sox are in the mix and visa versa. They wanted much more from us than they asked from the Sox. We cannot make deals just to keep people going to the Red Sox. What they wanted was crazy and I'm glad we turned them down.

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on Dec 4, 2007 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No...

You don't cave to prevent the Sox from doing something.

Cashman put his bid on the table. The Yanks are willing to pay Hughes, Melky and a mid-level prospect for 1 year of Santana.

If the Twins prefer Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson + one more then that's that.

Let the Red Sox send away 4 good prospects and Crisp for Santana.

Let them pay 6/150, 7/170 for Johan. And then rework Beckett's deal so he isn't making 1/3 of Santana's deal.

If they rework Beckett you figure he jumps to ~18-20 million. I also imagine they'll extend him... say 4 years?

They can have him. The Yanks can build around the trinity, get some bullpen help, wait until the OF kids come up and sign Tex next year.

Hopefully they keep the pick this year and draft well (they usually do).

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Response:

I am not saying fundamentally change the deal to stop Santana from going to BOS. But Austin Jackson is the reason you'd let BOS have Johan Santana for the next 6+ years? Why? He was listed as #49 prospect in baseball. He wouldn't even be on the team until at least 2010. He may or may not develop in to a MLB level player.

If Santana goes to BOS because the NYY did not give up a prospect, the NYY will live to regret it mightily.

Lets look at the points you made here:

For 1 year of Santana? That's silly. Any deal with either BOS or NY would have required a contract negotiation window with Sanatana to get a deal done. Getting that deal done is the only way either team makes the trade. Period.
Look at it from MIN's perspective. Crisp and Melky are about a wash. The "mid level" NYY prospect would probably be about the same as the extra prospect BOS is inculding.
That means the deal comes down to Lester/Lowrie/Masterson vs Hughes. Hughes is easily the best player of those 4, but can you not see that 3 good young high ceiling players is better for a rebuilding francise than 1?
Why would they rework Beckett's deal? What is this the NFL? He will get his money when his current deal is finished.

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

melky and crisp

are about a wash, except crisp costs about 10.5 million more than melky.

And hes not nearly as pesky.

by seanp23 on Dec 4, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know about that.

Crisp plays better defense, and is faster than Cabrera. He has also hit better in the past and might fare better out of the BOS pressure. But Melky is cheaper and under control longer.

Either way neither is very expensive.

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You were the one

who said they were a wash. I just pointed out that Crisp is making much much more money than melky.

I think melky is worth more though because Crisp is out of job in boston anyway with the rise of ellsbury. If he isnt traded I would expect melky to be the starting centerfielder for the yanks. Yet another example of how the red sox are getting a sweatheart of a deal. The twins are demanding crucial pieces of the yankees opening day roster and are making nowhere near the same demands of the sox.

by seanp23 on Dec 4, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I did say they were a wash, I was just explaining my reasoning.

Melky is worth more to NY than Crisp is to BOS, that is true. But that does not mean that Melky is more valuable to Coco to a 3rd team. Just because BOS has Ellbury and NY doesn't, doesn't mean that Melky is suddenly more valuable.

BOS has more pieces that MIN can use. It's all the better for BOS if they don't come from their 25 man roster. The fact that BOS has a deeper roster than NY does not make the deal unfair. Why would MIN take less from BOS? That makes zero sense.

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I did not say

It was unfair. I said it was a sweetheart deal for the red sox. Especially in light of the fact that the yankees are being asked to part with contributors to the major league squad whereas the red sox are not.

I still think melky is better than crisp, if marginally. Given his age and price he seems, to me, more attractive than crisp.

by seanp23 on Dec 4, 2007 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

sort of agree

i think crisp may be a bit better of a player right now... however i would think cabrera is a more attractive option for another team.

You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth. -Mickey Mantle

by NumberSeven on Dec 4, 2007 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No

Hughes and Melky and Austin Jackson are the reasons we won't make this trade.

We have to do what is best (short and long term) for both payroll and performance.

This hardly guarantees the Red Sox a dynasty. The Twins are asking less of the Red Sox than they're asking of the Yankees because the Red Sox can better meet the Twins' immediate needs.

If we can't get Santana for a reasonable price, then we can't. If it knocks a few more 'fans' off the Yankee bandwagon, I'll hardly cry about.

Let's be an underdog; 1996 was a lot of fun.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Dec 4, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

agreed Kevin 000

...unless the Yanks are willing to call 2008 (and maybe longer) "rebuilding years," Santana to the Sox buys the Sox the Division title in 2008, easy:

Santana 18 wins +
Beckett 18 wins +
Dice-K 16 wins +
Schilling 12 wins +
Buchholtz 12 wins +
Bullpen 20 wins
= 96 wins +

Wang 18
Pettitte 15 (if we're lucky)
Hughes 16
Kennedy 14
Moose 10-12
Bullpen 20
= 93-95 wins

....assuming Moose's arm doesn't fall off, Kennedy and Hughes can last 200 innings, etc. Once you get in the post season it gets worse: Santana/Beckett 2x each in the first round, 3x each in round 2. Doesn't bode well for anyone else....

by cinco64 on Dec 4, 2007 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree Cinco

But I think you are underestimating BOS's performance with that estimate. If they get Santana I could seriously see them winning 105+ games.

The NYY will be a very good team. But BOS would be an absolute superpower. The NYY could kiss the division goodbye for the foreseeable future.

And I do not like the prospect of my Indians facing an improved BOS team in the ALCS. Do not want.

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree....

....I was being conservative with my estimate of the Sox' final number of wins. Schilling could end up on the DL, but you've gotta figure Beckett, Santana, and Dice-K will exceed my numbers if healhty...its bad news in the short term for NY....

by cinco64 on Dec 4, 2007 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yanks will

beat your Indians next year in the alds so don't worry too much.

by miracle96 on Dec 4, 2007 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let my people go!

We've upgraded from Locusts to Frogs for ALDS 2008. Don't feel too bad though, at least you aren't a first born in BOS...

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Facing that staff for 18 games

is indeed a nightmare. However, the asking price on our end was just too much. The Yankees would be sacrificing the future, which has to be a consideration - they've made a conscious choice to get rid of the one-year blinders on, and instead decided to focus 5-7 years ahead, which is a good thing, regardless of BOS having what could amount to being the best pitching staff ever.

Speaking of which, if JS does head to Beantown, we can take solace in a couple things:
1.) Schilling is on his last legs and may well have a rough season.
2.) Despite impressive outings in the postseason, Dice-K wasn't all that with his near 5 ERA; he has control issues (which of course can be worked out) and teams have had a year to see him - hopefully he'll go the way of all other Japanese pitchers before him: into the crapper.
3.) There's a chance that Beckett, good as he's always been, may revert to 2006 form - a small hope, but it's there.
4.) Santana has been terrible at Fenway.

by docgonzo on Dec 4, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Couldn't agree more

Olney reports that the Yanks turned down Hughes/Melky/Horne/Marquez. If that is true, Cashman should be executed.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jeez...

That is just irresponsible.

Hughes: In his absolute best case he is Santana.
Melky: Mediocre and replaceable.
Horne: Good Prospect.
Marquez: Good Prospect.

Is that all it takes to get Santana?

I agree whoever made that decision should absolutely lose their job. They were already willing to part with Melky and Hughes. They basically made this statement:

(Horne + Marquez) - ("mid-level prospect") > (Santana with NYY) - (Santan with BOS)

That's just bad decision making in my eyes.

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You are too kind

That isn't bad decision making, it is criminal negligence. Marquez is crap and Horne is a 5th starter. I am shocked how people can continue to defend Cashtard. He is more useful to the Red Sox than the Yankees at this point.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think you are correct

As a Sox fan, I think people here vastly over-rate Melky. This proposal is Hughes and spare parts.

I confess right away that I am no expert on Hughes, and maybe I saw him hurt, but I just don't think he has the heart to be great.

Lester is a maybe. Plenty of heart. And when he fully recovers from his illness, his velocity is up to 93-94 on a routine basis. He is a different pitcher than you saw most of last year. Has some lingering "nibbling" problems, but that may go away with experience and more velocity.

Losing Masterson hurts, from Sox perspective. The rest are spare parts.

I am very torn about the Sox getting Santana. I am not confident that his health will hold up, and it is a ton of money.

Maybe the deciding factor for me is the close relationship between Santana and Big Papi. Never can have too much morale.

by Frank Malzone on Dec 4, 2007 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You should be ecstatic

Our fucking moron of a GM is helping you to build a dynasty.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Parts?

I agree about Melky.

I wouldn't worry about the money. You have Schilling going away after this yearm that frees up plenty of cash to make up for Santana's biggie paycheck. All you will have to replace then is what your 5th starter? How hard can that be?

I am interested in your take on Lowrie though, he seems to be a big part of this package.

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lowrie

was rated by Baseball America as the 8th best prospect in the Eastern League (just behind Alan Horne). This is why I call the Twins' demands unfair: Hughes=Ellsbury Melky=Lowrie

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Dec 4, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lowrie is more valuable to Twins

than Sox

Lowrie probably moves to second in the Majors. Sox have Pedroia

Lowrie can hit, but he won't challenge Lugo

from Sox perpective, he is a spare part

I hope the Angels swoop in and take Santana. Too many eggs in one basket with him

I prefer to send Coco to Texas for a catcher. If Veritek goes down, the Sox are in a world of hurt, dynasty talk notwithstanding

by Frank Malzone on Dec 4, 2007 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kennedy/Horne

Why no talk on sending both Kennedy and Horne for either Santana or Haren (leaving Phil and possibly Melky out of the picture). They apparently weren't impressed with Phil to take him alone with Melky and a second tier prospect. Instead they wanted either Kennedy/Horne/Jackson to sweeten the deal. If they want those guys.. let them have two of 'em and leave Phil out. I think this should especially be offered (Kennedy, Horne, maybe another second tier prospect) to Oakland for Haren b/c they apparently have no interest in Melky. Any thoughts?

by BobbyNYC on Dec 4, 2007 2:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Not even close

Oakland want more than MIN does. Haren is under control for the next 3 years, Santana is only under control for 1.

Beane would demand:

Hughes/IPK/(Holmes or Tabata)

or something of that ilk. The NYY do not have the stomach for a Haren trade.

Billy Beane is just fising. He'd rather trade Blanton to one of the runner-ups for Santana.

by KevinV on Dec 4, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Holmes

Sherlock or Katie? I didn't know either was in our system.

www.joebiden.com

by SenorSwanky on Dec 4, 2007 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's all, folks

We're officially out - someone high up said anonymously that the door is closed.

Since the Twins want to finish this deal today, we could be looking at facing Santana for the next 5-7 years. Good times.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2007/12/yanks_pull_out_of_trade_talks.html

by docgonzo on Dec 4, 2007 4:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Terrible news

I knew it was coming and here it is. Hank and his big fucking mouth and stupid deadlines have fucked us over. Now there is no pressure on Boston to sweeten their deal. I hope we all enjoy watching our kids battle Toronto and TB for second place for the next 5 years. This is a devastating day to be a Yankee fan.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If the Twins

weren't going to take the best pieces we were willing to offer, how has the deadline hurt us? Perhaps the Red Sox could lower their offer, but the Twins are welcome to come back to us and everyone knows that.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Dec 4, 2007 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Two ways

With our blowhard owner running his mouth, Theo could smartly sit back and wait for him to piss the Twins off. Now there is no pressure on Theo to get this done and/or increase his offer. If the Yankees hadn't set a deadline they could still be bargaining and at least driving up Boston's price.

Let me also go on record as saying that turning down a Hughes/Melky/Horne/Marquez package (and I trust Olney on that news) for Johan is hands down the worst move of the Cashman era, blowing the Pavano and Igawa signings out of the water. The man should have been fired years ago and this is just further evidence of that.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But you're missing the point

The Yankees were done negotiating. They decided how much they were willing to spend, and when negotiations reached that point they walked away.

That's what we've begged them to do for years. I won't fault them for it.

Furthermore "Theo could smartly sit back and wait for [Hank] to piss the Twins off" ?

So you think that because Hank openned his yapper the Twins decided to exchange the best player they've ever developed for a lesser package of prospects from the Red Sox?

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Dec 4, 2007 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hank opened his mouth

and forced the Twins' hand. I am fine with reaching a limit (although a limit of the quartet I mentioned is a disastrous mistake) but to publicly act like an ass and then remove all leverage the Yanks had forced Johan right into Theo's lap. The Yanks' backed away and Minnesota said "fuck it, we'll take what Theo's offering." If Hank had kept his mouth shut or if the Yanks had a more legitimate limit, I don't think it would have been so easy for Theo to make this deal. The bottom line is that the Yanks backed away from getting the best pitcher in baseball over a 5th starter in Horne. As Yanks' fans, we are going to be seething over this for years. The only brightside is that no one can keep a straight face and argue that Cashman is anything but a moron.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hank

acted like a complete moron. Deadlines? Attacking the Twins? Who the hell does he think he is?

You don't deal with other likes that. You sit and wait.

You say the Yankees had a limit. That's fine. The Sox had a limit too. They told the Twins that only one of their three was going and as of now they've stuck to that.

The Yankees should've done the same.

What a moron. He's going to drive this team into the ground if someone doesn't talk sense into him.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Who attacked the Twins?

Did I miss something?

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Dec 4, 2007 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He set a deadline

so the Yankees could try to get on with the rest of their offseason.

Agents and scouts have been saying the same thing (but anonymously). The Santana trade has been holding up the A's, the O's, and every free agent pitcher on the market.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Dec 4, 2007 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I don't get

all the hand-wringing over this. Like Hank's blustery, but relatively harmless comments would have an impact on a trade for the best pitcher in the game.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Dec 4, 2007 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

You expect the Twins to trade the best pitcher in the game a month after the WS?

Basically Cashman stepped away over a 5th starter in Horne.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Indeed

Worst decision of the Cashman era and man that is a long list to choose from.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, then

by your reasoning, they're not going to trade him to the Red Sox one month + 1 day after the WS. In which case, the Yankees will be back in the hunt a month from now, when the negotiations start again, which they won't.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Dec 4, 2007 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You completely missed the point.

The Twins, not the Yankees, have the best pitcher in baseball.

Said pitcher is available for trade. This happens once a decade BTW.

The Yankees want this pitcher.

So what authority do the Yankees have of setting deadlines and burning bridges in the media?

Look at the Red Sox. They kept their mouth shut and waited. They slowly increased their offer, but stuck to their limits.

The Yankees' limits were simple:

Only one of Hughes/Kennedy.

No Tabata/Jackson/Betances/Horne (WTF on Horne?!?) if Hughes is included.

So work off that. You still have Marquez, Kontos, McAllister, Miranda etc to work with.

This is Santana. Not some washed up, mediocre pitcher. Santana at 28?!?

Jeebus Cashman. Losing a 28 yr old Santana for Horne.

It's like... turning down Pedro in his prime because you didn't want to give up Casey freaking Fossum.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't believe everything you read;

it will make you a more discerning person.

Who was burning bridges in the media? If you think Stein's deadline was burning bridges, you've never been involved in a negotiation. Negotiating 101: Listen to half of what the other guy is saying because he's blowing smoke either in your face or up you ass.

Tell me why the Sox get to set limits: No Bucholz at all, and Ellsbury and Lester can't be in the same deal, while the Yanks are expected to just bend over.

Also, FYI, the deal ain't completed by the Sox. IMO, there are two things that continue to govern this situation:

1.) There is no way that the Yankees walk away from a Hughes/Melky/Horne for Santana package. No way. That is so incredibly unbelieavable that, well, I don't believe it.

2.) There is no way that the Twins finalize a deal with the Sox without checking in with the Yankees first. No way.

Here's Hank's potential statement for after he returns to the negotiating table: "Well, the Twins came back to use before finalizing things with Boston, said they genuinely wanted to work with us, get this deal done for Hughes/Melky/Horne/Plus. Apparently, they just needed the extra time to run through the process & they were adamant in saying it wasn't about playing us against Boston, but maximizing a situation in which they're giving up a potential HOFer. It's a tough spot for those guys."

This is how the game is played.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Dec 4, 2007 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't believe it

But I still don't like Hank mouthing off. It strains things by casting the other team in a bad light etc.

Plus the Yankees set their own limits:

Only one of Hughes/Kennedy. No Joba at all.

If Hughes is taken, no Jackson/Tabata/Betances/Horne.

See the Yanks had limits too.

Except they set or blew smoke about one more: You have till Monday? What?!?

How does that help? If the Yanks hold to that limit, it puts Boston in a more favorable position. If they don't then they lose a lot of standing. Already people question the Yankees' hard-line stances after the ARod fiasco. Heck ESPN was openly dismissing Hank's time limits.

by randomize on Dec 4, 2007 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hank is becoming the joke of baseball

All Theo had to do was read the papers then wait and call Minnesota an hour after Hank's stupid deadline.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pfisty, you've missed this one

The deadline was Hank's deadline for the first half of this week. There's a whole other deadline that kicks in starting tomorrow. That's the 'they came back to us in good faith' deadline.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Dec 4, 2007 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

True

Only to be followed up by his "deadline to make some stupid, bitter comment after my biggest rival gets the best pitcher in baseball" coming in a few days.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You can bet that when

Cashman spoke with the Twins about the deadline, he made sure to say, look, if you guys are gonna walk away from the current deal, at least do me the courtesy of letting me know what you're ready to accept from Boston. I might get Hank (my bogey in the offing) to relent in a couple days. We can always take a second look.

It ain't over till it's over.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Dec 4, 2007 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you

Hank is a fucking jackass. For weeks I have been saying his mouth would come back to bite us in the ass and it has. Hank is like Mark Cuban.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Feinsand

says that the offer the Yanks refused included Kennedy. I do trust Olney, but I tend to think that Hank would have trumped Cashman for the Horne/Marquez combo.

Nuke the whales. Save Phil Hughes!

by marcbouch9 on Dec 4, 2007 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Understood

Again, I am just saying that if it was true, turning down the quartet that Olney named is inexcusable. Personally I would have included IPK with Hughes and Melky but I can't really fault Cashman for turning that one down. There is no excuse for letting Horne be the dealbreaker though.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Dec 4, 2007 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It looks

Like this is eerily mirroring the arod negotiations. I have no doubt that they yanks will make one more offer. All this stuff is just a huge game of chicken between the negotiating teams and the teams you are negotiating against. Hank has been mouthing off like an idiot there is absolutely no doubt about it, but in a way he is forcing the action and cutting the BS. Basically he is saying: red sox, make your best offer and we'll see if we can/will best it.

I just feel like the twins are asking for two much from our major league squad. If we trade hughes kennedy and melky then we have lost our starting cf and we have replaced two starting pitchers with one-he happens to be amazing but he only pitches once every 5 days. Someone else said it better and earlier; the dynasty never had an ace, it had depth.

by seanp23 on Dec 4, 2007 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That last comment is very true

And not just for the Yankees - the 2005 White Sox come to mind; not really an ace on that team, but they had depth. For a year, anyway.

Only problem with the Yanks/Santana situation is that we won't see the full fruition of that depth for a couple years, at least. Santana is now, man.

by docgonzo on Dec 5, 2007 12:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, and if Santana goes to

LA or stays in Minn, then I'm content to live with depth. But if the Sox have depth and 2 aces, then we've got problems.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Dec 5, 2007 8:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why is this new news?

I think the Angels and Dodgers are still in this.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Dec 4, 2007 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i just think it's funny how we

are making comments on the value of some of our prospects based on an epsilon amount of information.

most will admit that the twins are excellent scouts. there is some reason that they want horne some reason they want jackson over anything else we have offered. why is that? it's not because hank is running his mouth that we are not caving.

by tombradylikesdudes on Dec 4, 2007 10:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs