What went wrong?

by TLVP on Oct 9, 2007 9:25 AM EDT Comment 32 comments

Frontpaged by jscape2000

What happened?

Our starting made Brown, Vasquez, Weaver, Loaiza seem like star pitchers...

We got a total of 14.1 innings from our starters, not counting Pettitte we got 2.2 innings per starter!

Don't blame the offense! Against the Cy Young of the year the offense chased him after 5 innings and got 3 runs of him... Any time you get 3 runs in the post season against a future Cy Young winner that is good and with our own ace on the mound that is a game we should have won!

So really, game 2 was very weak but remember Carmona pitched exceptionally well - such things happened and esepcially in the post season. (Still thanks to Andy we almost won)

In game 3 and 4 we got 8 runs and 4 runs, we chased the starting pitcher after 5 innings. That should be good enough to win in the post season.

Starting pitching was what put us in the 21-29 hole in April and May, starting pitching lost us the ALDS. Don't moan about the offense

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I disagree...

Yeah, the starting pitching (except Andy's game) was worse than terrible. But when we were on our winning streak(s), we were scoring 7+ runs/game. That hid our flawed pitching. We did score some off Cleve's starters, but then what...their middle relief shut us down. Who ever heard of this kid Perez? Back to the bats...take a look at the LOB and RISP numbers...that tells the story. And how many DP's. We'd get men on then either leave them on or erase them with a GIDP.

Oh those bases on balls. Can anyone here throw strikes???

by mickey07 on Oct 9, 2007 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I know what you are saying

but this was the post season against two of the best pitchers in the world. Runs will be at a premium. The offense is only as good as the opposing starter allows it to be.

And honestly in hindsight if we start Mussina we win game 4. 12 hits, 4 runs, 3 HR... I know 21 LOB is ugly, but 4 runs should have been enough. 3 runs against Sabathia behind your ace should have been enough.

Finally... Wang on 3 days rest, it's easy to say it now with 20/20 hindsight but how many starts on 3 days rest ever work out? For every gamble that works out there are probably 10 that doesn't.

by TLVP on Oct 9, 2007 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: I disagree

Let's look at the scores and starter's innings of all the Yanks winning streaks over 5 games this year.

June 5-June 14:
7-3, 5IP 1R Clippard
5-1, 9IP 1R Wang
10-3, 6IP 1R Moose
5-4, 8IP 4R Pettitte
9-3, 6IP 3R Clemens
13-6, 3.2IP 6R Clippard
4-1, 7IP 1R Wang
7-2, 7.2IP 2R Moose
7-1, 8IP 1R Pettitte

July 12- July 18
6-4, 6IP 3R Wang
7-6, 6IP 3R Moose
6-4, 5IP 3R Igawa
3-2, 7IP 1R Pettitte
6-1, 6IP 1R Clemens

July 20- July 25
7-3, 5IP 2R Igawa
17-5, 4.2IP 4R DeSalvo
21-4, 6IP 3R Pettitte
9-2, 7IP 2R Clemens
9-4, 6IP 4R Wang
7-1, 5.2 1R Moose

August 3-August 7
7-1, 7IP 1R Wang
16-8, 4.2IP 6R Hughes
8-5, 6IP 2R Moose
5-4, 5.2IP 3R Pettitte
9-2, 6IP 1R Clemens

What I see here are 25 wins. The offense 'bailed out' a starter who went less than 6 or allowed 4+ runs 9 times (and that includes a 4 run/ 8 innings start by Pettitte and 3 5IP/1 or 2 run performances- Igawa, Clippard, Moose).

I would argue that when things were going well our offense got more attention than our good pitching.

But in those streaks starting pitching was the key because it allowed the bullpen to be more effective. Looking at those 25 scores, our opponents scored only 20 runs in 71+ innings (there are extra innings that I didn't go back and look up) because the starters pitched 154 innings- average of 6.14 per start.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Oct 9, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sum it up

We were shutdown. Wholly and completely, period.

This wasn't about Alex (although the media douche-bags certainly pushed it). It wasn't about Torre; or Cashman. This was about our vaunted lineup of All-Stars and HoFers not getting it done for the 4th straight year.

This was about our rotation not rising up to the level of the competition--for the 4th year.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Oct 9, 2007 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Half true

Wang stunk twice, no doubt.

But Pettitte met the challenge. He left the game with a 1-0 lead and eight outs to go.

And while it wasn't a start, Hughes pitched better than anyone on either team in Game 3.

It's really all about Wang and bad luck/lack of timely hitting, whichever you choose to call it. Anything Cleveland threw their bats at with two outs and RISP found a hole somewhere. Yanks had no such luck/skill.

by matthaggs on Oct 9, 2007 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Started Hughes

I thought it was a mistake to start Wang with so much rest. I seriously would have started Pettitte and followed with Hughes. Meanwhile, I would have had Wang throwing 75 pitches in the pen during games 1 and 2 for a start in 3. But I guess it really doesn't matter.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Oct 10, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's what happened:

1.) Wang
2.) Bugs

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Oct 9, 2007 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Bugs

Geez, I even hate to bring up the Lake Erie midges again because it sounds so much like whining, especially considering how it didn't affect Carmona. But put Joba out there under normal conditions and we're probably looking at a 1-0 win and a rested Andy on the mound for Game 5 tonight, Wang's implosion and anemic bats notwithstanding. They should have stopped the game.

Just a thought to help you through the long winter.

by django on Oct 10, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Clutch Hitting...Or lack of.

That breaks down the series fairly easy I think. 2 runs scored with 2 outs in an inning versus 14 or 15 from Cleveland. That's huge.

Bottom line...they got hits when it counted. We got 8 hits off Kelsey Grammer for 2 runs. HORRIBLE. No body could get a hit when needed.

by AKJoe on Oct 9, 2007 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

So what's the solution?

Blow up the league's best offense? You act like the Yankees can pick and choose when they get hits.

The offense did not score many runs because they did not hit the ball where they ain't. That's not the offense's fault; that's bad luck.

by Willton on Oct 9, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chill out..

I just posted a thought I had.

by AKJoe on Oct 10, 2007 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bad Luck?

Not really....Shitty hitting more like it.

by AKJoe on Oct 10, 2007 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You act

like the offense can pick and choose when they get their hits.

by Willton on Oct 10, 2007 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And you act like you know everything.

by AKJoe on Oct 10, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I certainly know more than you.

by Willton on Oct 10, 2007 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You can be nice about it and

say that the "starting pitching" sucked or you can just go ahead and be honest and admit that Wang sucked.

Everything looks nicer when you win. The girls are prettier. The cigars taste better. The trees are greener. --Billy Martin

by garp on Oct 9, 2007 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wang struggled going into the playoffs.

If you're surprised that he struggled you were not watching.

We clearly need better starting pitching next year. Isn't it nice that we seem to have the solution to the problem under contract, and cheap.

Next year should be fun.

Let's hit the gym and get ready for spring.

by Cbeck3 on Oct 9, 2007 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wang struggled going into the playoffs.

If you're surprised that he struggled you were not watching.

We clearly need better starting pitching next year. Isn't it nice that we seem to have the solution to the problem under contract, and cheap.

Next year should be fun.

Let's hit the gym and get ready for spring.

by Cbeck3 on Oct 9, 2007 4:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Okay, just in case:

I'm hereby going on the record as saying that if we don't get a real ace in the mix, we won't win the World Series next year. We can't count on the rooks plus Wang and Pettite.

Here's my rationale for making this prediction:

If I'm wrong, none of you will remember.

If I'm right, I can come back next fall and tell you all I told you so.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Oct 9, 2007 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Free Agents

Looks like you guys are already scouting Johan Santana...that would be an improvement.

Lurking Red Sox Fan

by B Cap on Oct 9, 2007 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

And...

Jake Peavy's up for grabs after 2008...Doubt he's going anywhere though...

Lurking Red Sox Fan

by B Cap on Oct 9, 2007 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't exactly shine

in big moments either.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Oct 9, 2007 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chip Caray

I know this is off-topic, but Chip Caray's atrociousness even offended the Paper of Record.

He might have been worse than Wang this series:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/sports/baseball/09sandomir.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogi n

by matthaggs on Oct 9, 2007 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Still not as bad

as Craig Sager's attire all postseason. He looks like he lost a bet and his friends got to pick out the most ridiculous outfit they could find.

Fear the Evil Empire

by pfistyunc on Oct 9, 2007 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice they picked up on it

His errors were especially notable last night. Bonified idiot...I hope TBS enjoys those shitty ratings.

by PsiFighter37 on Oct 9, 2007 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another one

Apparently Waldman cried on the air during the post game yesterday. But in the second half of this story this guy reams out Caray again and points out more gaffes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/10/sports/baseball/10sandomir.html?ref=sports

by matthaggs on Oct 9, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boras

This guy is priceless (pun intended). I know he has every right to do it, but how much is enough?

I was fairly confident about his return until I saw this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/sports/baseball/10boras.html?hp

by matthaggs on Oct 9, 2007 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Boras = megalomaniac

Yes, but will any team want to meet Boras' price?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3055752

My money still says he'll be back. I've never seen him more comfortable with his teammates - mentoring the younger guys like Melky and Cano - than he was this year. That's gotta be worth something. How much money does he really need? Does he want to go somewhere and start over again?

by django on Oct 10, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah,

a.) It is either a ploy to get the Yankees to really jack up their extension offer,

b.) An indication that A-Rod's willing to go.

Had A-Rod had a big post-season, felt the love and conquered the demons, things might have been different.

I think he's gone already.

I always feel pressure. What I don't have is fear. -- El Duque

by LateInningRelief on Oct 10, 2007 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another way of looking at it.

I definitely believe that he felt the love this season, maybe for the first time in his career. Admitted, it was easy with the numbers he was putting up, all the times he came through in the clutch, and the absence of any extended slumps during the season. But the fans realize that without his magnificent season there wouldn't have been a postseason. And Chip Caray to the contrary - what was all that nonsense about "Most Vilified Player" anyway? - ARod can hardly be singled out as the goat of this series.

Sure he fell short this season. The entire team did. But who's to say he doesn't take that as a challenge to take this team all the way?

by django on Oct 10, 2007 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think

Yesterday's post or News had the front page pictures of Arod and it said Beaten Alex or something to that effect. I walked by and thought if I was him I would not need that kind of crap. I have no idea if another city is going to go after him in quite the same way.

I think he could have done better in the postseason but he absolutely could not have carried the team on his back. Too many mistakes were made by too many. Blame goes around fairly evenly.

Who wouldn't I blame? Shorter list: Phil Huge, Joba, Andy Petitte, Mariano Rivera.

Mussina and Farnsworth pitched well but if they hadn't fallen apart in the regular season we could have used them more (maybe started Mussina) and done better.

I still can't get over the stike out by Jorge with the 3-0 count and the non production by Jeter. Those are 2 things that are still bothering me.

"The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." -Casey Stengel

by bxgrl1 on Oct 10, 2007 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Game 4 and Joe

Getting rid of Joe means breaking up this team. It only needs a #1 starter and a some middle relief. The pitching sucked all year. Disguised by the fact that the offense was carrying the team were the 22-3 blowouts. It was always rationalized as "just one game" but it was indicative of a real weakness in long and middle relief.
Is it just me who couldn't believe that Joe didn't send Damon when it was 1st and 3rd in the 8th inning with only one out and Jeter up? Perez' first two pitches were in the dirt, the Indians were playing their second string catcher, and Damon never gets caught stealing. Instead, Jeter hits an inning-ending double play. Missed opportunities. Need to play small ball sometimes.

trickyrick

by trickyrick on Oct 10, 2007 11:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs