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Changing of the guard



This isn't exactly "news" because the transition has been in the works for at least a year, but the NY Post reports that George M. Steinbrenner III will officially cede control and day-to-day operations of the New York Yankees this week in Tampa to his sons, Hal and Hank Steinbrenner.

Details have yet to be ironed out but it appears that the brothers will share final say on all team decisions.  Hank will likely focus on the baseball side of the business while Hal will shift his focus towards the construction of the new Yankee Stadium.

It has been a bit quiet the last few days in Yankeeland, but you can be sure that will soon change when the big wigs convene in Tampa this week to decide Joe Torre's job status and we hear more details on the inevitable changing of the guard.

Thankfully, Hank Steinbrenner has already insisted that Joba Chamberlain will be in the rotation next season.

Stay tuned for a busy week ahead.

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Joba
Take Hank's words with a grain of salt.

Everyone in Boston made similar statements about Pabelbon during last year's offseason, and look where he ended up halfway through Spring Training.

And now imagine if Mo somehow skips town (doubtful, but certainly possible).

I'm just sayin....

by matthaggs on Oct 14, 2007 5:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

We have pitchers
better than Joel Pinero to fill that gap.

The Red Sox had no better option; we do.

"Have faith in the Yankees, my son. Think of the great DiMaggio."

by jscape2000 on Oct 14, 2007 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A good starter
is more valuable than a shutdown closer. If the Indians can win the AL Central with Joe Borowski as their "closer," then it's pretty clear the Yanks do not need Joba in the bullpen.

by Willton on Oct 15, 2007 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True
but to play devil's advocate for a second, a lot of the Indians' success can be attributed to Betancourt and Perez taking the ball from both excellent starters (CC and Fautso) and crap starters (Westbrook, Byrd, etc...) and locking down wins in close games.  Whether the score was 7-6 or 1-0. We saw this firsthand in Game 2.

I understand the starting pitcher argument, but it's worth noting that the Yankees have been looking for an 8th inning pitcher since Nelson and Stanton were last effective 7 or 8 years ago. Decent relievers like the Viz are a dime a dozen. Excellent relievers like Joba don't come along very often.  Maybe Joba will become Verlander and someone else on the farm can become Zumaya, but right now the Yanks have a more glaring need for an 8th inning pitcher than a starting pitcher (if Pettitte returns, which I think he will).  

Wouldn't the Yankees, with their offense (if Arod comes back), win more often with Joba appearing in 70 games instead of 35?  Wouldn't a decent starter be able to get a lead to the 6th or 7th inning, at which point Joba and Mo could put it in the books?  Wasn't it nice to relax when the 7th inning rolled around and Chamberlain was available?

I know the stats go against the move, but my eyes see the kind of team Boston was this year with Papelbon and Okijima, and the Angels a few years ago with Shields and K Rod, and the Yanks with Mo and Wetteland, etc. etc. etc... and those teams always end up going places. And the Yanks end up going home.

by matthaggs on Oct 15, 2007 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fisking your argument
but to play devil's advocate for a second, a lot of the Indians' success can be attributed to Betancourt and Perez taking the ball from both excellent starters (CC and Fautso) and crap starters (Westbrook, Byrd, etc...) and locking down wins in close games.  Whether the score was 7-6 or 1-0. We saw this firsthand in Game 2.

Yes, but only in game two. The other games won by Cleveland involved their offense outscoring the Yankees by a large margin in the early going. Cleveland certainly has a fine bullpen, but their offense was the reason they won that series.

I understand the starting pitcher argument, but it's worth noting that the Yankees have been looking for an 8th inning pitcher since Nelson and Stanton were last effective 7 or 8 years ago. Decent relievers like the Viz are a dime a dozen. Excellent relievers like Joba don't come along very often.  Maybe Joba will become Verlander and someone else on the farm can become Zumaya, but right now the Yanks have a more glaring need for an 8th inning pitcher than a starting pitcher (if Pettitte returns, which I think he will).

And while the Yankees have been looking for that 8th inning reliever, they've been winning their division each year (save 2007) due to excellent offensive production and decent starting pitching. You can't tell me that the bullpen is more important than starting pitching and offense in the face of that evidence.

The reason Joba was excellent in the relief role is because he's not a relief pitcher; he's a starting pitcher. The bullpen is historically where failed starters (such as Mo) go to resurect their careers. Lets not end Joba's career before it gets started.

Wouldn't the Yankees, with their offense (if Arod comes back), win more often with Joba appearing in 70 games instead of 35?

No, because in those 70 games he'd only pitch about 80 innings, whereas with 35 starts he'd likely pitch over 200 innings. The more innings Joba pitches, the more runs he prevents. And trust me, a bad starter does more damage to his team than a bad reliever does.

Wouldn't a decent starter be able to get a lead to the 6th or 7th inning, at which point Joba and Mo could put it in the books?  Wasn't it nice to relax when the 7th inning rolled around and Chamberlain was available?

I imagine it depends on your definition of "decent" and how often you'd like that "decent" pitcher to have a lead going into the 6th or 7th inning.

It sure was nice to be able to rely on Chamberlain in the late innings, but it definitely was not nice having to rely on Mike Mussina, Kei Igawa, Matt Desalvo, Ty Clippard, Darrel Rasner, and Jeff Karstens at the outset of each game they started. Again, I'd much rather have to rely on a shaky reliever than a shaky starter.

I know the stats go against the move, but my eyes see the kind of team Boston was this year with Papelbon and Okijima, and the Angels a few years ago with Shields and K Rod, and the Yanks with Mo and Wetteland, etc. etc. etc... and those teams always end up going places. And the Yanks end up going home.

And how often did the Yanks go home because of a bad bullpen over the last 3 years? By my count of every postseason game the Yanks lost over the past 3 years, only 1 was lost in the late innings: Game 2 of the 2007 ALDS. Every other game was lost due to shoddy starting pitching, poor offensive output, or a combination of those two. Joba can't do much about the offense, but he can affect the starting pitching from here on out.

Chamberlain should be played as a starter unless and until he shows that he can't hack being a starter.

by Willton on Oct 16, 2007 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very well said
I certainly understand why it makes sense to put Joba in the rotation and leave him there for 10 years.

I'm just saying it might be easier to find a starter then it would be to find someone to do what Joba did when he came up.  He stabilized the entire pitching staff.  The Yankees have two holes to fill and can only use Joba to fill one of them.

And to your point, yes Wang stunk in Game 1, but if the Yanks had more depth in their pen, they could have kept the game close enough for a comeback.  Ditto game 4. And Cleveland's bullpen (while shakier in Game 4) held both leads. Cleveland also won Game 2 and Game 3 against Boston on the strength of their pen. Winning in the postseason has become more about relief pitching than starting pitching since the Yankees were last in the WS, the exception being the White Sox.

Next year the Yanks could throw Pettitte, Hughes and Wang in that order in the playoffs.  With Joba and Mo backing them up that would be tough to deal with.  

by matthaggs on Oct 16, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Starting pitching
I did some research on the topic of starting pitching and the Yankees during the Joe Torre era and there is little question why this team hasn't been able to get to the World Series since 2003.

It all comes down to the starting rotation.

Check out the rotations from '96 - '07:

  1.  David Cone, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key, Kenny Rogers, and Doc Gooden
  2.  David Cone, Andy Pettitte, David Wells, Kenny Rogers, and Doc Gooden
  3.  David Cone, Andy Pettitte, David Wells, Orlando Hernandez, and Hideki Irabu
  4.  David Cone, Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Orlando Hernandez, and Hideki Irabu
  5.  Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, David Cone, Orlando Hernandez, and Denny Neagle
  6.  Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, Orlando Hernandez, and Ted Lilly
  7.  Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, David Wells, and Ted Lilly
  8.  Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, David Wells, and Jeff Weaver
  9.  Mike Mussina, Kevin Brown, Javier Vasquez, Jose Contreras, and Jon Lieber
  10.  Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Chien-Ming Wang, Jaret Wright, Carl Pavano, Kevin Brown, Shawn Chacon, Aaron Small, and Al Leiter
  11.  Randy Johnson, Chien-Ming Wang, Mike Mussina, Jaret Wright, Shawn Chacon, Sidney Ponson, Cory Lidle, Jeff Karstens, and Darrell Rasner
  12.  Chien-Ming Wang, Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Kei Igawa, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, Chase Wright, Tyler Clippard, Matt DeSalvo, Jeff Karstens, and Darrell Rasner
It is no coincidence that the Yanks haven't been back to the World Series since the depth of their rotation declined dramatically in recent years.

When you can throw a younger and healthy Clemens, Pettitte, El Duque, Wells, or Cone against the opponent in the postseason, they are going to have such an depth advantage that no other team can match.

Sure, the opponent might have an "ace" that is better than the Yanks' top pitcher.  But, they can't match the 2 -4 slots in the rotation and that is essentially why this team was unbelievably tough to beat and won the most hardware.

This is why I think keeping Joba in the rotation is a no-brainer.  They need to stack the rotation with the young arms (along with Wang and Pettitte) and hope they can assemble baseball's version of the Four Horsemen similar to what they had during the dynasty.

It won't happen overnight because the kids are going to take their lumps.  But the lack of starting pitching is the primary reason why the Yanks have been sent home early the last four years.

by anaconda on Oct 16, 2007 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's part of it
but I would argue that the Yanks starting pitching pitched well enough to give the Yanks a 2-0 lead against Detroit.  Mussina's Game 2 start wasn't brilliant but it was at least very good.

After game 2 the starting pitching went in the shitter, but so did the whole team.

Against Cleveland, Pettitte hung in there against Carmona pitch for pitch. The bullpen blew it with the help of bugs.

While it wasn't a start, Hughes pitched better than anyone on either team in Game 3.

I guess I'm saying starters are easier to fix than top quality bullpen guys. Bullpen heroes of recent years come from the farm or from random luck (Okajima). It's easier to judge what you have in a starter.  Isn't it?

Of course it would help if the hitters showed up too.

by matthaggs on Oct 16, 2007 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

joba
joba will be a starting pitcher... unless Mo leaves (which won't happen, but could, as you said.) As said above me, we do have young pitchers to replace Joba in the set-up role, but I'm not sure any of those guys are ready to close. Hopefully Mo is back, and Joba is starting, but we'll have to wait and see.
"It's great to be young and a Yankee"

by stillmonster on Oct 15, 2007 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Papelbon
Just typing his name makes be wanna' hurl. In an ideal world, the Sux would have preferred to keep him as a starter. He had/has shoulder concerns, and they were worried that the wear and tear of a 33-35 start season would damage him. They also had a HUGE gap to fill in the pen.

Joba, I pray isn't an injury risk, and I'm hoping we still have Mo.

"Baseball is the background music of my life." -George Will

by Ronster22 on Oct 15, 2007 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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