It looks to me as if you're oversimplifying a complex situation.  When the team is properly constituted to match Torre's strengths, he's irreplacable and the Yankees are almost unbeatable.  When they're not, Torre's weaknesses (which were evident to me when he managed the Mets -- Bill James used to refer to him, before he took over the Yanks, as Joe "Deathhouse" Torre) start to become more important, and annoying to the more perceptive fans.

So the real answer is not whether Torre should go or when, but whether Cashman is able to build the kind of team that Torre can lead to greatness, one with an extremely strong (and mostly self-sufficient) pitching staff along with a powerful offense.  If he can, then Torre should stay, but if what we get is a team that requires constant tinkering and good strategic and tactical moves from the manager, then Torre should go.  That means that if they decide to rebuild (unlikely given the pressure to succeed and Steinbrenner's personality), they should replace Torre.

Well then why not hire me or you to manage the Yankees. Figure all wee need is a team completely self-sufficient, we won't have to make any decisions. All we need is five Cy Young candidates, a few Gold Glovers, and five of the top ten in MVP. If that's all Torre needs, I can receive a buyout on my current job and take over the Yankees for a substancially lower salary. Just keep in mind, I don't tinker or deal with tactic.

Do you think he even gives a shit if they lose? He actions would indicate "no." I see other managers, Guillen, Pinella, even Randolph and Francona, show some sort of emotion. Throw a damn water cooler across the dugout or something to let us know you have a pulse. Something, Anything. When you do a press conference, get pissed. When there's a questionable call, (ex. Sheffield being safe at first in the 8th) go get freaking thrown. Pull the bag out of the ground and throw it at the guy who fell on the screen. When there is a decision to be made, make the right one for once. Have your starter hit the bull with the first pitch of the game and then have Posada tell the hitter not to dig in because no one knows where the ball is going. Require all your players to wear a rally cap in the 9th when you're down by six. Take your sunglasses off to prove to everyone you're awake. Take a swing at Mel. Manage the game in catcher's gear. Smoke a cigarette, a la Jim Leyland. Grab your crotch and gesture toward the opposing dugout in the middle of a pitching change in which you bring in Franklin. Order pizza for the bullpen in the 2nd inning. Have your players bunt every other at bat. Call Lee Mazzili in the middle of an important inning and ask WWLD (what would Lee do?) Have your trainer issue CPR to you every third at bat to make sure you're breathing. Wear the same socks for the rest of the season and let people know you're doing it. Demand that George sign that kid who jumped onto the screen for a brief show during the 7th inning stretch. Take a swing at Mel. Win ten in a row and overtake the Red Sox and have a concert at the stadium with Arroyo as the feature.

Come on Joe let us know you have a pulse in there. I love ya Man, but I need something because even I'm becoming complacent.

have faith that his team can come back. Too often he seems to give up on a game and save his best guns for the next one. Last night was a perfect example. Although Mo was ready for the 9th, he stayed with Embree bacause he did not want to use Mo in case they did not score a run. Just notice that Gordon and Mo hardly ever come in unless they have a lead. He does nothing to try to keep the game close. Embree pitched a good 8th and would have had a good performance win or lose had Joe not pushed his luck and put him out there in the 9th. I imagine that the rest of the team sees this too.

A while back, I read both of his books, Joe Torre's Ground Rules for winners, and Chasing the Dream, and a big part of his management philosophy is that he never wants to embaress his players.

He wrote that he had some bad experiences with managers who would yell and curse, and he never wanted to be that type of manager. He would rather stay clam and deal with his players as a human being rather then showing an outburst of emotion (ie, Lou Pinella).

He also wrote that when things are bad, he is much more likely to stay calm and let the players work it out themselves, but that when things are good, he is more likely to push his players.

I still think that he is one of the best managers in baseball, and that we can't really blame him for Randy getting old, Pavano and Wright getting hurt, and KB for being worthless.  

There was a certain amount of sarcasm to my post. I agree with you 808, just seems like me like some players lack some intensity and have become complacent. I guess I have always played with and against guys, and coached with and against guys who push when things are going good and bad. I love Joe, I think he's a great manager. I was being more sarcastic than anything. I just want things to turn around over night and the longer we lose the more I don't see it happening. I don't think Joe deserves blame for everything, anyone can second guess, but I think that is why we write on here and watch each night win or lose. Don't think I was bashing Joe, just trying to add a little humor to another sour loss.

When Joe made the players sit and watch the Red Sox get their World Series rings at Fenway, the media wrote about what class acts the Yankees are. I felt proud of that, but I'm wondering if you can have class and still smack the occasional water cooler. I think there's a balance between staying calm all the time and letting your emotions show to get the team fired up every now and then. I've second guessed Joe in just about every single post, particularly regarding his pitching moves, but I agree that he does need to get mad when it's warranted. In previous seasons, I remember him coming out onto the field and really getting on the umpires. This year he mostly sits there on the bench and stews. I say, get this guy some Prozac along with better players.

relax man, i was being SARCASTIC, i have always respected joe's ways of managing, how can you argue the success that he has had? clearly, you misunderstood the post, do i really think he should punch mel in the face, or hire the dumb kid who jumped onto the screen? it was a joke, some humor to lighten things up a little. i'm sorry you're upset. i'm a yankees fan, therefore i'm a joe fan...let's get 3 of 4 from texas!

with that last statement, i have stood by torre all the while. still do. there seems to be some type of intesity lacking, and i don't believe it should come from him. i've always liked his personality...just thought it was funny to compare him to the likes of pinella, leyland, and even mazilli. just misunderstood your questioning of my loyalty to him.  of course i question some decisions, second guessing, monday orning quarterbacking is what seperates us, but i like joe. just wish we could win more games. thanks ed.

"there seems to be some type of intesity lacking"

He certainly does seem somewhat dazed and confused, doesn't he?  And well he might, considering that the world he's currently inhabiting bears little resemblence to the world he's been used to.  

Think of the hallmarks of the Yankee teams of late:

--they have excellent starting pitching
--their relievers are solid and dependable
--the batters are generally patient to the extreme, and frequently go deep into the count
--they have an explosive and well-distributed offense that can deliver runs at almost any point in the game, but most especially in pressure situations with the game on the line
--everyone contrbutes offensively: the power hitters with home runs, and the rest of the team with timely base hits that keep the game moving

This last point is why I rue the loss of Miguel Cairo and Tony Clarke -- they aren't power hitters, nor do they carry a high average, but time after time, they provided the necessary clutch hit which kept the line moving and allowed the bigger guns to do their work.  Their equivalents this season are Posada, Tino, Womack and (lately) Cano, who all stop the train dead in its tracks.  The top of the order does its job, the middle does too, and the bottom of the order throws a wet blanket on everything.  (We might as well allow the pitchers hit in the #9 slot, for all the production we're getting down there.)

That's one reason why I've far from convinced that pitching is our only problem to be concerned about.  Granted, it's the most egregious one, but the good productivity of the top two-thirds of the order (less Cano in recent weeks) masks the dismal performance of the bottom of the order, and the pinch hitters.

--Let's admit that the experiment with Womack's speed has failed, just as it did with Dave Collins years ago, and we either need to keep him on the bench to pinch-run, or dump him entirely.  Don't let him bat again, for whatever reason he just isn't hackiing it.

--Williams is done for, we need to replace him (with a younger player, please! -- maybe Texas will fade away and be willing to sell Soriano back to NY so we can covert him back to an outfielder again).  

--Posada either needs to relearn the strike zone and get his patience back, and learn to block the plate, or make way.  (Not for Mr. Interstate Flaherty, again, a younger player -- maybe one of the Molinas?)  

--Someone (Sierra?) needs to whup Cano upside the head, because he's starting to turn into another free-swinging Soriano type, only without the requisite power necessary to overlook his faults.

--Jason Giambi -- all is forgiven and I take back everything bad I said about you.  I was wrong about you, and you proved me wrong.  You're the only real bright spot, the only move in a positive direction in a team basically shifting the other way.

The rest of the team -- Jeter, A-rod, Matsui, Sheffield -- is solid, but that's a lot of problems on a team which wants to make the post-season -- and I didn't even address the abysmal pitching!

(Incidentally, it's probably true that good pitching beats good hitting, but it doesn't beat GREAT hitting, for that you need great pitching!  The Yankees used to have great pitching and great hitting, now they've intermittently good hitting and barely above average pitching.  That doesn't seem like much of a recipe for post-season success.)

"But I read that Cashman and company feel he's uncoachable and wouldn't make the transition to center."

That's a damn shame.  I thought that perhaps Soriano's annoyance about being trading meant that he'd be really happy to have the Yankees go out of their way (and pay a lot of money) to get him back.  (Nothing like feeding a ball player's ego by showing him you made a mistake getting rid of him.)

Didn't he start out as an outfielder before being converted to second?

It just occurred to me as I was thinking about some of Joe's bizarre (at least to me) pitching moves this season, plus his play-it-safe style with his hitters and base runners....In the past, when he had Zim as his bench coach, he seemed to be a little more daring. (Yeah, he also had a better team in some respects.) Anyhow, I'm wondering if we're missing Zimmer's contribution more than we realize. Nothing against Willie or Girardi, but I know Zimmer was a wily baseball guy who liked to take interesting chances.